[Monero Aligned] Locha Mesh, a resilient long-range radio mesh network

Myself and the small group of enthusiasts in the Monero Transmissions Lab telegram channel have been searching for a project like this for the past year. The ethos and goals of Locha Mesh are very aligned with that of Monero, and this is the best option I have discovered so far to achieve decentralized off-grid and off-internet Monero transactions. I love that they have their own open-source firmware for both the MCU board and the radio module.

I think some more specific milestones would make it easier for the broader Monero community of funders to feel comfortable with this type of proposal, and I have suggested they take a quarterly proposal approach. I also would love to see some specific milestones related to Monero, even if it just was to work on better documentation for Monero contributors to get involved.

That all being said, I support this proposal and I look forward to volunteering with Locha Mesh whenever I can find the time to do so. I plan to build and test this myself over the next year or so and will be submitting feedback as I go. If all goes well, we can even make some Locha Mesh articles or tutorials and promote through Monero Outreach.

First we need to make sure these guys get funded.

Just repeating what i said on IRC #monero-community for posterity:

While this sounds like a very cool tech development project, i am not sure how it relates to Monero explicitly (as apposed to any other p2p network that wants to operate off-grid).

I also agree with xmrhaelan that the proposal needs much clearer milestones to judge output. Perhaps a development roadmap?

I think that an initial shorter proposal (1 month/2 months) would also help build trust with the community. Rolling monthly/quarterly proposals are the norm/accepted for core devs like moneromoo and MRL (both trusted entities), as apposed to a brand new proposal from a relatively untrusted entity. I mean the request is not exactly a small amount either.

While this sounds like a very cool tech development project, i am not sure how it relates to Monero explicitly

I agree. With the same amount of money we could fund another full time researcher. I can understand why this can be a cool and interesting projct, but i don't think we should fund its development. Sending transactions over radio is not a priority and interests an extremely small portion of Monero users. I don't see in this proposal enough benefits for Monero to justify the big expense.

i am not sure how it relates to Monero explicitly (as apposed to any other p2p network that wants to operate off-grid).

IMO, monero will benefit enormously from this kind of infrastructure, and we can't just hope that it gets developed somehow. This is like us "hoping" that someone comes up with an actual ASIC resistant algorithm. No, we had to do it ourselves (im using the queenly we here, my apologies to the actual monero-pow folks). The same is true here. WE are building the decentralized future. I mean, imagine that headline - "Monero now functions on an entirely decentralized radio network."

. With the same amount of money we could fund another full time researcher.

A full time researcher to develop a network protocol that could be blocked and made inoperable by the centralized infrastructure it depends on? It's kinda like if we had a space ship and the engine was going to break soon and it needed repairing or replacing, but someone says "well, with that money we could hire new navigators or engineers to improve the weapons systems."

(as apposed to any other p2p network that wants to operate off-grid).

To this point, it would be great to get some buy in from some of the other big names in the space. Like, I dunno, zcash, that has bajillions of funding, or hell, bitcoin, which claims to prioritize decentralization. Perhaps we could get a fundraising match thing going.

I do agree with some of the structural critiques however (total funds requested, modifying for quarterly, needing more concrete milestones). Also, I was kinda disappointed in the github repo. Not really straightforward. Like, is there a way to actually run it on an existing router? And if so, how?

My thoughts exactly. Well said @gingeropolous.

I was kinda disappointed in the GitHub repo

I thought it needed work too and am encouraging them to focus their Monero ask initially on funding to improve documentation for Monero contributors.

Thank you for the feedback, @xmrhaelan and @midipoet

@erciccione, sending a Monero transaction, that is supposed to be completely private and anonymous, from a home WiFi or mobile network-SIM card (even if you use Tor), is not exactly the most private nor anonymous way to do it, but unfortunately it’s the only method available. Having a decentralized anonymous communication system to broadcast transactions and sync your node seems to us something the Bitcoin and Monero users would like to have in the near future.

With a lower amount of ~$3500 USD/month we could have two full-time developers working on protocol and the core code that runs on the hardware.

The amount of $10,000 USD/month would be the cost of the development team as a whole at the current burn rate with extra room for at least one more developer (that we are needing). We currently don’t have that many resources neither from investment nor from pre-orders of the Turpial devices.

A Monero specific milestone that we could accomplish within or by the end of the 6 months could be to successfully sync Monero nodes over the Locha Mesh instead of using the traditional Internet.

Not sure we could advance the development fast enough with $3500 USD/month to accomplish this milestone that needs the Locha Mesh network fully working within 6 months, but that amount would totally help us continue working to achieve it sooner or later.

Something new like this is needed, as it is becoming clear that Internet connectivity will be used to control people. Look what is happening in India (https://internetshutdowns.in/). It isn't clear to me, though, how this would integrate with Monero today, where you need to be sure transactions get through to miners and be able to read blocks as they are mined. The Monero communication network needs to be global, or there needs to be an offline mechanism for temporary Monero exchange that isn't yet in place. It would be really helpful to present a complete picture of how this would be integrated into a Internet-blocked location (like Jammu and Kashmir) to enable local continued use of Monero.

Also, could you detail why your approach is better than the other open-source mesh network options out there?

@Almutasim, we are working on a real option for those situations. At Locha Mesh we want to enable communications against the odds.

@xmrhaelan, maybe you could share what you've found in this past year: https://twitter.com/xmrhaelan/status/1212921097055694848?s=21

@gingeropolous, we've been developing the firmwares that run on the hardware completely open-source at GitHub for a year now.

We are making a mesh node hardware that is mobile, that can run on battery or solar power for days, the hardware itself can be built by anyone following the instructions that we'll have (when we get enough funds to continue developing and documenting).

We are making an alternative communication network to the Internet, that is censorship-resistant, private, and completely anonymous. Whether it could work with Monero right away (as @Almutasim points out) it's something we'd need to research (maybe this could be a specific milestone) depending on the Monero needs.

Regarding other mesh projects: We are not trying to share Internet access (like https://www.nycmesh.net, https://freifunk.net) we are making something for the situations where you don't have Internet at all, either due to lack of infrastructure, targeted censorship or in case you want to be completed anonymous so you don't want to expose your home/phone IP address that is linked to your identity, our main goal isn't for you to sell/buy your Internet data/access in a "decentralized" way (https://althea.net, https://www.opengarden.com, https://www.rightmesh.io), we are not making a low-bandwidth IoT hostpot to mine an altcoin (https://www.helium.com) using a very limited-in-real-life-use hardware with very little number of manufacturers (LoRa*), and we are not closed-source software (https://www.sonnetlabs.com, https://gotenna.com) and closed-source hardware neither we get funds from the CIA (https://gotenna.com). Also, we are not making very limited in range (9 to 100 meters top) Bluetooth or WiFi mesh networks (FireChat, Briar, Bridgefy) using your smartphone which something that's not feasible and unreal to ever be used in real life by people who are really need for an alternative.

And last I'm thankful for ServalProject for the inspiration when I found out about them 2 years ago, but it doesn't took us 8 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to make an Android app for creating a bluetooth mesh that doesn't really work in real life situations, and their stationary antennas, on our idea of stationary antennas are DIY RPi or more powerful computers with an attached radio module or one of our Turpial devices, modular, customizable, something that can be disguised for security/safety purposes in hostile places; so it is affordable and it can be improved by the community.

*LoRa, which is also used by the open-source disaster.radio that let them only do low-bandwidth chat. While our design lets you theoretically 10x the bandwidth, IPv6 support, true decentralized mesh topology and routing without needing centralized coordinators.

PS: We are not Chinese copies of goTenna like: GOFINDMETracker, Xquad, GoTeleGPS, Radacattech...

@randybrito great response. I hope people can read between the lines of this and see that the goals and ethos of Randy and the Locha Mesh project are very aligned with those of Monero.

@xmrhaelan, maybe you could share what you've found in this past year: https://twitter.com/xmrhaelan/status/1212921097055694848?s=21

You’ve already articulated most of them. The one I’ve seen that I think you left out is GNUnet, which appears to be much larger in scope and also doesn’t have the same vision for decentralized internet for crypto transactions and messaging.

If people are curious about learning more we’ve consolidated links to some of the projects that hit our radar on the Monero Transmissions Lab telegram channel (http://t.me/MoneroTransmissionsLab)

ugh, im not gonna install some app. i don't understand telegram, i really don't. And thats the one that wants my phone #. Yuck.

Anyway.

Yeah, the response from randy was spot on - thats what I was looking for.

Maybe sgp could use his magic to rope in some other communities to fund this. The milestones still need to be worked on tough. Final milestone should be product IMO, or schematics to get the board printed. Sorta like how the hardware wallet team did it. Yeah - needs more concrete milestones. Right now it sorta reads like "we're gonna do it, just give us some monero and we'll do it". Alternatively, could be split up into 3 or 4 month increments. MRL & Mooo has had great success using this model. Though this has a much more tangible final goal.

What would be super sweet is to coordinate development of the software / hardware such that other sites could replicate the work and then immediately test and implement a global relay network.

@gingeropolous, do you have links for the hardware wallet team proposal and other sources? Can't find it here in this GitLab.

Yes, please help me improve the milestones. As mentioned the proposal is a draft with the real costs of achieving the goals, but the Monero community doesn't have to cover the whole cost, what I was trying to ask here is for some support in common goals (truly private communications for anonymous transactions and sync). If $3500 USD worth of XMR is raised during a whole month, that would help us pay for two full-time developers costs (yeah I know, we pay kinda low salaries because we don't have a lot of funds).

Regarding the schematics and board design, our idea is to not only give clear instructions and guidance on how to built your own DIY version of the hardware with off the shelf parts, but also make a version of the hardware completely open-source, but not a PDF and claim that we are open-sourcing it, no, we mean real open-hardware with all the design files, 3D, schematics, parts, components list, and instructions for you to send it to a manufacturer and have it build for you in case you cannot make it by buying DIY parts. This open hardware part is difficult to achieve if we have to rely only on investors' money who expect a return for the hardware development they've paid for.

I think it's a great initiative, but I am in favor of starting small and trying to get other projects who will benefit to cover part of the cost.

$3,500/mo is a much more realistic initial goal, perhaps for 3 months.

@erciccione I understand that this isn't a feature that will be used by many, but I still think the option is valuable and is clearly aligned with the goals of Monero.

This being said, I need someone else to review the code to make sure it's sensible and to make sure the roadmap is realistic.

$3,500/mo is a much more realistic initial goal, perhaps for 3 months.

I would approve a proposal with these terms and more concrete milestones.

here's the hardware wallet FFS

https://forum.getmonero.org/22/completed-tasks/88149/dedicated-monero-hardware-wallet

@randybrito , I'm curious what your thoughts are on scope creep. I.e., is the thing your building only going to be good for monero / bitcoin transmissions? Or will it be possible to put anything into a data packet? In other words, could this be combined with IPFS (and namecoin I guess) to start building a second internet?

or are there specific things about cryptocurrency that lend well to a 900 Mhz mesh network?

We at Locha Mesh are creating a real high-bandwidth mesh network, using license-free bands, that is capable of handling not only block headers and transactions (which are very small in size) but also block sync and more other useful features, like the IPv6 support so services can run inside the Locha Mesh.

@gingeropolous, anything that has been built to work on the current Internet could theoretically run inside the Locha Mesh (at a lower bandwidth, of course). Locha Mesh is an alternative data transmission system, we are focused on making messaging and offline Bitcoin transactions as the proof of concept and because we don't have enough resources to do all the use cases ourselves right now; but yes you can run an Electrum server inside the mesh, sync nodes, IPFS, OpenAlias, Scuttlebutt/Manyverse, ..., and run higher level stack for an encrypted resilient new version of the Internet. Maybe the Kovri team could help on drafting this.

I've been talking with DID developers (trying to approach the DIF https://identity.foundation/) to see if they would be interested in supporting our efforts too.

The most difficult part of what we are doing is hardware, which is currently very limited in offer to common users, this is why we want it to be completely open-source hardware, so hardware availability is not a problem anymore. Developers are currently using development launchpads (as it is currently being updated in the repo documentation by our developers and @xmrhaelan https://github.com/btcven/locha/pull/14); and we also have drafts of a pcb board for off the shelf parts that may need some update that we could make open-source, despite the specific radio module we are using cannot be bought online as a plug-and-play module right now, there are similar ones available that we can recommend to developers who would like to join our team right away until we have the development-kits of our own board available for sale. We just need support to be able to continue working and eventually everything will be available.

But when? That would depend on how fast we can do it by committing more resources towards the development of both the software and hardware.

After these comments, is the scope of our efforts more clear? What Monero specific milestones do you think we should research and achieve, beyond the common ones that would enable the main Locha Mesh network to work and be available for the Monero community to use and build on?

We are currently offering pre-orders of the finished products for donations towards the open-source software development, a $1000 USD donation will give you 3 Turpial devices, maybe the funds raised through this proposal (or if there are individuals reading who'd like to donate to us) could be through this offer and the pre-ordered devices (e.g. dev-kits) would be sent to developers chosen by the Monero community for them to be able to work on the development.

The scope is definitely clearer. I'm being a bit thick headed though when it comes to specifics, and I apologize if its annoying. But the primary question I have is - what is the current state of development?

Along these lines, why are you the right folks for the project? I get the sense that you have the passion, but do you (and your team) have any documented proof of execution for this kind of development? Monero community funding usually works with a "here's proof that I can do the work, now please fund me to do more of it" model. Now, of course, with something like this its sorta chicken and egg (if you had something that was working you wouldn't need more funding, unless it was to scale up production or something).

Again, I'm saying all this as someone that really wants to see this thing happen! So please take these constructively.

and I apologize if its annoying. But the primary question I have is - what is the current state of development? None of you are bothering, at all.

Thank you for your feedback and all the effort you are putting on this!

We’ve been developing the Locha Mesh software and hardware for more than a year now. We’ve researched and tested all other options available for mesh, open-source and closed-source options too, our team have background experience in radio communications, embedded systems, and more. We are not that good on public relations, that’s true.

The current state of development is:

The mobile app has almost 6 months of development, it’s ready to be used with the hardware.
We are about to manufacture the second revision of the hardware (Turpial) that we expect to be the candidate for a production-ready revision for the development-kits.
The developers need these dev-kits in order to be able to work on real hardware for testing and faster, more productive coding.

What could help us go faster and better, so we could focus our efforts on other milestones beyond the main-core features:

Code review and suggestions
Code improvements
Funds to be able to hire and train at least one more developer
Community support on documentation (or funds to be able to hire someone for this task), so more people could learn from it and join the development efforts with launchpads or off the shelf parts until we get the dev-kits manufactured, tested, and shipped to devs and also pre-ordered ones if people like to receive them to be used for development.

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[Monero Aligned] Locha Mesh, a resilient long-range radio mesh network

What

Who & Why

How does the Locha Mesh help Monero?

This Proposal and Milestones

In the long term

Where to follow progress

Contact

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[Monero Aligned] Locha Mesh, a resilient long-range radio mesh network

What

Who & Why

How does the Locha Mesh help Monero?

This Proposal and Milestones

In the long term

Where to follow progress

Contact

Merge request reports

Activity