Create 2016-03-19-overview-and-logs-for-the-dev-meeting-held-on-2016-03-19

_posts/2016-03-19-overview-and-logs-for-the-dev-meeting-held-on-2016-03-19

+---
+layout: post
+title: Overview and Logs for the Dev Meeting Held on 2016-03-19
+summary: Few PRs were discussed, GUI commit(s), app/add-on infrastructure, version structure
+tags: [dev diaries, core, crypto]
+author: dEBRUYNE / fluffypony
+---
+ 
+*March 19th, 2016*
+ 
+# Logs
+ **\<dEBRUYNE>** dev meeting in 5 min, FYI
+**\<hyc>** dingdong
+**\<gingeropolous>** hello
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** fluffypony, smooth, othe, ArticMine, luigiw, NoodleDoodle, tewinget, moneromooo
+**\<floofypony>** there we go
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** did I forget anyone?
+**\<tewinget>** oh, hello
+**\<luigi>** is warptangent around?
+**\<ArticMine>** Hello
+**\<hyc>** he's been fighting a flu last we heard
+**\<moneromooo>** hi
+**\<NoodleDoodle>** Hello. I'm here but I'm fighting the apocalypse.
+**\<NoodleDoodle>** of flus.
+**\<luigi>** keep doing it
+**\<luigi>** wait you're alive that's good to hear
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** fluffypony seems ded
+**\<@fluffypony>** sorry
+**\<@fluffypony>** was eating
+**\<@fluffypony>** welcome everyone
+**\<@fluffypony>** so as you know we pushed out 0.9.2
+**\<@fluffypony>** however, there are some nagging issues from the ReadTXN work
+**\<@fluffypony>** hyc has nailed a major one as of a few hours ago
+**\<@fluffypony>** so we'll probably do a point release on Monday or so
+**\<@fluffypony>** also that means that the way we use LMDB has changed a bit
+**\<@fluffypony>** hyc can you tell us briefly how we should wrapping access to LMDB, both read and write operations?
+**\<hyc>** Are you talking about the CRITICAL_REGION stuff?
+**\<@fluffypony>** yes, and the cursors vs. txns stuff
+**\<hyc>** ok, the critical_region stuff actually is not a change at all.
+**\<hyc>** basically, when you're setting up to do a write, you need exclusive access to the DB
+**\<hyc>** this appears to have been a long-standing bug, unrelated to the readtxn changes
+**\<hyc>** so as for reads - there is now a long-lived read txn per thread
+**\<hyc>** and a set of read cursors to go with each
+**\<hyc>** the TXN_PREFIX_RDONLY macro sets that up in a particular function, grabbing the thread-local-storage for it
+**\<hyc>** and RCURSOR(dbname) sets up a read cursor for a particular DB
+**\<hyc>** these are analogous to the CURSOR(dbname) macro for getting a write cursor to a DB
+**\<hyc>** the point of all this is to avoid a bunch of malloc/free/seek when accessing a DB
+**\<hyc>** the old code was allocating a readtxn and cursors inside each function
+**\<hyc>** likewise for writes
+**\<hyc>** by reusing the same cursors acros a set oof functions we get a pretty good performance gain
+**\<hyc>** ok?
+**\<@fluffypony>** neat
+**\<@fluffypony>** also on the topic of stuff-hyc-did-lately
+**\<@fluffypony>** if anyone missed it, we now have a win environment guide up on forum.getmonero.org
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** ^ https//forum.getmonero.org/5/support//building-monero-v0-9-2-on-winMonero
+**\<@fluffypony>** so that should get us all on the same page with testing etc.
+**\<hyc>** and one success story replied to it already ;)
+**\<@fluffypony>** we've also dropped support for BDB as the default database, and switched to LMDB as the default
+**\<@fluffypony>** including on -bit and ARM
+**\<@fluffypony>** BDB will remain supported for the moment, primarily as a mechanism for contributors to understand how to build out DB support
+**\<@fluffypony>** krongle)
+**\<@fluffypony>** shew we have the entire xmr.to team here today, that's awesome
+**\<binaryFate>** fluffypony good memory P
+**\<@fluffypony>** we shared a podcast together, binaryFate -P
+**\<krongle>** yes - impressive nick-name recollection
+**\<@fluffypony>** hah hah
+**\<@fluffypony>** while we have you guys here, are you guys doing anything cool you want to talk about?
+**\<binaryFate>** we're doing many cool things, but nothing we can talk about at this stage
+**\<@fluffypony>** hah hah
+**\<@fluffypony>** it does lead to an interesting point of conversation
+**\<binaryFate>** seriously considering btc -> xmr direction
+**\<@fluffypony>** plugins
+**\<iam6yearsold>** If NobleSir or xmr.to team could talk more about xmr.to integration at MiniNero that would be great.... also are 2 way conversions coming to xmr.to soon?
+**\<@fluffypony>** iam6yearsold Shen's offline at the moment, I'll ask him to update the Reddit thread with some info )
+**\<@fluffypony>** re plugins, we've spoken briefly about options for the GUI
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** iam6yearsold There is a bit of info here -> https//imgur.com/a/HZL7k
+**\<binaryFate>** iam6yearsold for MiniNero integration you'd have to see with NobleSir. The API doc is at http//xmrto-api.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
+**\<@fluffypony>** but I guess we could have "plugins", of a sort, that add functionality
+**\<@fluffypony>** like xmr.to or shapeshift integration right in wallet2 / wallet2_api
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** I think we should be fairly strict on which plugins to allow
+**\<binaryFate>** fluffypony we wanted to discuss that plugin integration soon in fact )
+**\<arnuschky>** we're quite interested to all secondary  questions related to plugins
+**\<@fluffypony>** I guess the major question becomes
+**\<arnuschky>** so plugin repository/db, packaging, distribution etc
+**\<@fluffypony>** do we allow "permissionless" plugin development, or do we just have a central repo that we git submodule in?
+**\<ArticMine>** The main question I see with plugins is trust
+**\<@fluffypony>** ArticMine exactly
+**\<arnuschky>** yes. It puts quite a bit responsibility on the dev team
+**\<gingeropolous>** well no ones going to trust anything that doesn;t come from core
+**\tewinget>** \<fluffypony> we shared a podcast together, binaryFate -P  <-- wasn't I there for that?
+**\<@fluffypony>** considering the recent Google Chrome Bitcoin stealing malware I think that premissionless plugins are dangerous
+**\<gingeropolous>** as we've seen with 3rd party GUIs
+**\<luigi>** you obviously can't stop permissionless dev, you can discourage users from trusting it I guess
+**\<hyc>** we can start signing binaries, ohjoy
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** I would prefer the latter
+**\<@fluffypony>** luigi I mean permissionless within core
+**\<luigi>** oh
+**\<luigi>** I think no
+**\<arnuschky>** it's related to how plugins are written. If it's binary blobs, it's a) hard to build, distribute etc, and b) hard to examine
+**\<binaryFate>** fluffypony I'd see both possible all together. Unpermissioned scale and central repo for a selected subset would ease experience and trust for user
+**\<arnuschky>** so if plugins are interpreted (eg python), things become a whole lot easier
+**\<iam6yearsold>** for the record I hated the twittter plugin idea I saw a while back
+**\<ArticMine>** My take permissionless has to be allowed. The end user has to be made aware who is signing and if to trust the plugin
+**\<@fluffypony>** well the Electrum model works well
+**\<moneromooo>** I agree with ArticMine
+**\<arnuschky>** (inspection in case of central repo, but also self-distribution by plugin devs)
+**\<@fluffypony>** ThomasV will merge basically any plugin, as long as it's not malicious
+**\<@fluffypony>** and plugins are part of the core code, effectively just in a subfolder
+**\<@fluffypony>** I think it's a testament to Electrum that they haven't had a malicious plugin ever
+**\<arnuschky>** how do they deal with the upgrade/maintenance workload? Or do they just disable broken plugins?
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** Is there a way to make a subfolder in the subfolder? i.e. (1) signed and approved by core-team, (2) optional
+**\<@fluffypony>** arnuschky yeah they just disable broken plugins, and eventually they get deprecated out
+**\<ArticMine>** We should allow self distribution with appropriate warning
+**\<@fluffypony>** ArticMine anyone can compile their own build, which would be the same thing
+**\<arnuschky>** are you planning for compiled plugins or interpreted ones? that's quite a differens IMHO
+**\<@fluffypony>** arnuschky so
+**\<arnuschky>** self-distribution is a mess for compiled ones...
+**\<@fluffypony>** I was thinking we have a repo, say it's called monero-plugins
+**\<arnuschky>** audit as well
+**\<@fluffypony>** and then anyone can PR to that repo
+**\<@fluffypony>** and that repo is pulled into the main Monero source as a git submodule
+**\<@fluffypony>** there are two advantages to this
+**\<@fluffypony>** 1. as it gets bigger and harder to deal with, we can step back and other known members of the community can manage that repo
+**\<@fluffypony>** 2. if we come up with a standard set of functionality hooks, then other projects can pull that same repo in
+**\<@fluffypony>** eg. jwinterm's lightwallet
+**\<@fluffypony>** also it means that the compiled Monero binaries have those plugins baked in, and you can't add extra plugins post-compile
+**\<@fluffypony>** so no need to deal with interpreted code and securing that on disk and in memory
+**\<hyc>** baked in means no dynamic loading?
+**\<tewinget>** \<fluffypony> so no need to deal with interpreted code and securing that on disk  <-- if securing an interpreted plugin on disk became an issue, securing the binary would be an issue anyway, so I don't know of that bit matters
+**\<binaryFate>** Sounds all good to us. If distribution is done through official channels it's great.
+**\<@fluffypony>** hyc yes
+**\<@fluffypony>** no dynamic loading
+**\<hyc>** cool
+**\<@fluffypony>** tewinget I mean we can't secure it in the path from random-site-on-the-web down to random-download-folder and eventually into secure-disk-location
+**\<arnuschky>** fluffypony that would be really great.
+**\<@fluffypony>** ok - I think next steps would be to consider some of the hooks we need to provide to add functionality
+**\<@fluffypony>** we can use the Monero wikia as a collaboration area for that
+**\<ArticMine>** It is a good balance for plugins
+**\<@fluffypony>** and then we'll just update the Monero Slack
+**\<arnuschky>** well securing the plugins can always happen by signature - no matter if interpreted or binary
+**\<@fluffypony>** I'm kidding, we don't have a Slack
+**\<@fluffypony>** we're not that cool
+**\<aerbax>** Would these plugins allow for interpreted languages like Lua or Python?
+**\<arnuschky>** :)
+**\<@fluffypony>** aerbax I don't see why not, individual CMake files in each plugin folder that allow it to produce a library fix everything
+**\<binaryFate>** We could financially support development of plugin architecture if xmr.to is the first instanciation of those plugins.
+**\<@fluffypony>** if it spits out a .so / .a / .dll with the right hooks then it's fine
+**\<tewinget> fluffypony> tewinget I mean we can't secure it in the path from random-site-on-the-web down to random-download-folder and eventually into secure-disk-location  <-- and yet, we provide binary downloads...so "random site on the web" could be managed the same as said binary downloads
+**\<tewinget>** just like any random site on the web can offer binaries for download and we can't secure that either
+**\<tewinget>** caveat emptor has to come into play at some point, I think
+**\<@fluffypony>** the binaries present a single attack surface, and there's GPG-signed hashes
+**\<@fluffypony>** if we have to do GPG-signed hashes for a bunch of .py files I think I'll go mad -P
+**\<tewinget>** I'm not saying I think it should be one way or another, I'm merely pointing out flaws in your argument P
+**\<@fluffypony>** fair enough
+**\<@fluffypony>** binaryFate I think the stumbling block will be that somebody needs to champion this and run with it, and I won't be able to lead it due to travelling in a week
+**\<ArticMine>** As long as people can compile their own version with non permissioned plugins this can work
+**\<luigi>** they can always do that
+**\<@fluffypony>** yep
+**\<@fluffypony>** and in fact that would be the testing model
+**\<luigi>** we're not apple )
+**\<@fluffypony>** fork the repo, and build a binary to test your new plugin
+**\<iam6yearsold>** asking noobs to compile will limit adoption
+**\<ArticMine>** luigi Exactly
+**\<@fluffypony>** iam6yearsold why would noobs be writing their own plugins?
+**\<gingeropolous>** for security
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** lol gingeropolous
+**\<@fluffypony>** lol
+**\<arnuschky>** fluffypony championing the first plugin or the whole infrastructure?
+**\<tewinget>** What about a curated repo of plugins (as suggested) but with those plugins written in python/lua?  Someone modifying the python/lua on a target's disk is the same as someone modifying the binary anyway, and python/lua plugins would be far easier to develop and audit I think
+**\<@fluffypony>** arnuschky championing the design, I guess
+**\<arnuschky>** tewinget I would prefer that.
+**\<iam6yearsold>** how about 1 version with binaries and gpg sig and no plugins? caveat emptor for the rest
+**\<arnuschky>** mostly due to auditing, and there's no build/distribution mess attached
+**\<@fluffypony>** I would prefer we remain language agnostic
+**\<@fluffypony>** iam6yearsold that's what we already have
+**\<tewinget>** fluffypony language-agnostic is fine, but...well, how do you imagine that will work out?
+**\<iam6yearsold>** thanks pony. I like the current situation then
+**\<@fluffypony>** tewinget read up
+**\<arnuschky>** ah even language agnostic. I thought up to now it's supposed to be a C++ only API
+**\<tewinget>** as in, how do we become language-agnostic so that we can remain so?
+**\<@fluffypony>** []  /<aerbax>        Would these plugins allow for interpreted languages like Lua or Python?
+**\<@fluffypony>** []  /<@fluffypony>   aerbax I don't see why not, individual CMake files in each plugin folder that allow it to produce a library fix everything
+**\<@fluffypony>** ^^
+**\• smooth** is here
+**\<@fluffypony>** also what if a plugin wants to call a function in the core crypto library, for instance?
+**\<arnuschky>** design-wise, that's sounds like a nightmare, no?
+**\<moneromooo>** Oh, so linked directly ? I kinda assumed it was gointg to be RPC based.
+**\<@fluffypony>** ok well I think we're getting into an implementation discussion that's outside of the scope of this meeting
+**\<arnuschky>** I mean, if you don't have a small and defined API, every bigger change in the wallet will break plugins
+**\<arnuschky>** true )
+**\<@fluffypony>** after the dev meeting we can continue this conversation if you guys want
+**\<@fluffypony>** but let's first circle back around
+**\<luigi>** this deserves some kind of design thread like ringct imo
+**\<moneromooo>** Oh, link ?
+**\<@fluffypony>** moneromooo: "this deserves"
+**\<@fluffypony>** so nothing yet
+**\<moneromooo>** "like ringct"
+**\<@fluffypony>** oh
+**\<@fluffypony>** I see what you were asking
+**\<luigi>** oh
+**\<moneromooo>** Oh
+**\<@fluffypony>** OH
+**\<luigi>** "like ringct is supposed to get"
+**\<moneromooo>** Fair enough.
+**\<@fluffypony>** so basically this is all luigi's fault
+**\<luigi>** warp was gonna go [email protected]
+**\<gingeropolous>** its true. i mis-called out luigi on that one
+**\<@fluffypony>** warptangent is off sick at the moment
+**\<luigi>** yes
+**\<luigi>** so I blame that
+**\<@fluffypony>** I blame Canada
+**\<@fluffypony>** ok back on track
+**\<@fluffypony>** since the last meeting the bulk of the PRs have been bug fixes
+**\<@fluffypony>** and changes to the way we access the DB as discussed at the beginning
+**\<@fluffypony>** we also had a huge discussion about how to handle mixins below the minimum in the RPC call
+**\<@fluffypony>** which was then implemented in #715
+**\<@fluffypony>** I'm also going to try to personally spend some time on the text that users see, things like the level 0 logging output and the CLI flag help
+**\<luigi>** oh I was gonna do that
+**\<luigi>** but then I didn't
+**\<@fluffypony>** luigi we can do it together
+**\<luigi>** awwww
+**\<@fluffypony>** I can show you the world, shining shimmering splendid
+**\<gingeropolous>** take you wonder by wonder
+**\<@fluffypony>** lol
+**\<@fluffypony>** also #728 was a little contentious
+**\<@fluffypony>** so we created a company called Mixinstream that has hired all the contributors
+**\<palexander>** heh heh
+**\<@fluffypony>** and gingeropolous has launched Monero Classic
+**\<gingeropolous>** ( sorry )
+**\<@fluffypony>** -P
+**\<@fluffypony>** ok so #728 is Ilya's work as part of the GUI effort
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** Can I launch unlimited?
+**\<@fluffypony>** he was struggling with wallet2, and decided to break it out into something more logical and usable
+**\<@fluffypony>** (to him at any rate)
+**\<ArticMine>** What makes it contentious?
+**\<@fluffypony>** ArticMine I'll get to that now
+**\<@fluffypony>** he's unintuitively called it wallet2_api, which is a little confusing
+**\<@fluffypony>** but basically a lot of it is a wallet2_api call which then does little additional logic, and mainly just passes stuff back to wallet2
+**\<@fluffypony>** and there's a lot of DRY-violating code because of it
+**\<@fluffypony>** obviously there was some push back, not to prevent merging it
+**\<@fluffypony>** but more to understand the thought process
+**\<moneromooo>** Define DRY ?
+**\<iam6yearsold>** DRY violating scares the shit out of me
+**\<gingeropolous>** https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%t_repeat_yourself
+**\ <gingeropolous>** maybe
+**\<@fluffypony>** yes
+**\<@fluffypony>** iam6yearsold DRY violations are just where you have a piece of code in two places
+**\<@fluffypony>** so any changes have to happen in both
+**\<@fluffypony>** we can treat the DRY-violating code as a temporary issue, though
+**\<iam6yearsold>** two places = more opportunity for error
+**\<@fluffypony>** as we're going to wait until Ilya is done with it
+**\<ArticMine>** Which makes maintenance much harder
+**\<@fluffypony>** and then we'll either drop wallet2 and replace it with the new wallet API
+**\<@fluffypony>** (ie. replace the simplewallet calls as well)
+**\<@fluffypony>** or if it's just a pointless layer we'll have to go the opposite route
+**\<@fluffypony>** and change his Qt callers to use wallet2
+**\<@fluffypony>** as it stands it's kinda undecided and we'll have to see how Ilya goes
+**\<ArticMine>** Is Ilya aware of the concern?
+**\<@fluffypony>** ArticMine yes, we had some discussion on the PR, and othe has also spoken to him afaik
+**\<@fluffypony>** he was responsive on the PR comments, but this isn't Bitcoin
+**\<@fluffypony>** we don't ACK NACK utACK for years before merging somethingm
+**\<@fluffypony>** aintnobodygottimeforthat.gif
+**\<luigi>** utNACK
+**\<@fluffypony>** luigi #networknerd
+**\<moneromooo>** utACK was not a typo ?
+**\<luigi>** no
+**\<luigi>** means untested
+**\<luigi>** conceptACK or similar
+**\<@fluffypony>** yeah
+**\<@fluffypony>** moneromooo https//lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/-December/71.html
+**\<@fluffypony>** if you're interested
+**\<hyc>** crap
+**\<@fluffypony>** LOL
+**\<@fluffypony>** PasteGate 2.0
+**\<gingeropolous>** internets
+**\<othe>** ur pasting skills suck
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** Hahah
+**\<@fluffypony>** othe pasting is a scam
+**\<hyc>** that's how I write all my patches
+**\<@fluffypony>** I just copy-and-paste code from StackExchange
+**\<gingeropolous>** thats my job
+**\<@fluffypony>** heh
+**\<@fluffypony>** ok so anyone who can reproduce the 0.9.2 segfault please try latest master
+**\<@fluffypony>** and if you're still segfaulting let us know
+**\<@fluffypony>** else we're going to do a point release on Monday
+**\<@fluffypony>** 0.9.3, I guess?
+**\<luigi>** hrm
+**\<@fluffypony>** or 0.9.2.1
+**\<luigi>** we're gonna run out of numbers at this rate
+**\<@fluffypony>** yeah we are
+**\<luigi>** oh wait
+**\<hyc>** 0921
+**\<luigi>** we have 0.10
+**\<luigi>** nevermind
+**\<iam6yearsold>** will there be multiple devs in IRC at time of hard fork this week just in case? I see a few pools still on old cold and probably a few users too
+**\<@fluffypony>** yes we just do a Bitcoin
+**\<moneromooo>** No chance, there's an infinity of those.
+**\<@fluffypony>** 0.11
+**\<@fluffypony>** iam6yearsold yes, and we've reached out to as many of them as we can
+**\<luigi>** is 0.10 supposed to be for next hard fork?
+**\<@fluffypony> luigi fork that
+**\<@fluffypony>** when warptangent is back we'll see how it goes on ringCT
+**\<@fluffypony>** and make a more concrete decision as to the timing of the next fork
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** iam6yearsold The hardfork will approximately take place at 13:00 UTC, so both US and Europe will probably be awake
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** and Asia of course
+**\<luigi>** everyone will be awake
+**\<@fluffypony>** even me
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** hawaii will probably be asleep
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** -P
+**\<@fluffypony>** heh
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** fwiw!
+**\<luigi>** wat
+**\<Wolf`>** lol
+**\<smooth>** we should also consider what else we should go in the next major version besides ringct (doesn't need to be discussed now)
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** uh I meant  UTC btw
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** you muricans with AM/PM
+**\<Wolf`>** who got drunk and posted about a party in #monero-dev
+**\<luigi>** oh
+**\<luigi>** then america won't be up
+**\<moneromooo>** The db reorg seems like a good candidate.
+**\<luigi>** oh well
+**\<@fluffypony>** smooth agreed
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** east coast will right?
+**\<luigi>** sure ish
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** You better set your alarm luigi
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** :-P
+**\<@fluffypony>** Surae is also going to be picking up MRL-6 in the summer
+**\<@fluffypony>** he has some ideas about how to complete that
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** MRL-6 is multisig?
+**\<iam6yearsold>** I will party hard if fork happens with no drama
+**\<@fluffypony>** dEBRUYNE: no
+**\<@fluffypony>** https//github.com/monero-project/research-lab/tree/master/publications/MRL-%-%Difficulty%Adjustment%Algorithms%in%Cryptocurrency%Protocols
+**\<dEBRUYNE>** oh cool, thanks
+**\<moneromooo>** How do get cmake to tell you the commands it's running ?
+**\<luigi>** we have diff, we have db stuff, we have fee stuff
+**\<@fluffypony**> moneromooo: I normally make VERBOSE=1
+**\<moneromooo>** Thanks, I was trying V=1
+**\<luigi>** I like my V=2
+**\<@fluffypony>** ok - any last things to add
+**\<fluffypony>** or can we call it?
+**\<luigi>** call it