Create and manage a peer-to-peer trading room on Matrix for people wanting to buy and sell Monero with no KYC
Buy and Sell Monero Matrix Room
An easy way for people to buy and sell Monero for fiat peer-to-peer with no KYC
This proposal is for myself to create and manage a peer-to-peer trading room on Matrix for people wanting to buy and sell Monero for fiat with no KYC. Features of the room include:
- No KYC.
- Peer-to-peer.
- Users have the ability to buy and sell Monero with fiat.
- Accessible from multiple clients (mobile, desktop, web).
- Accessible over Tor.
Why Matrix?
Matrix is the obvious choice for this proposal. For those unaware of Matrix it is an open protocol for decentralized, secure communications. There is already a Monero community on Matrix.
The benefits of using Matrix to develop a P2P trading room are:
- Matrix has an existing community of Monero users.
- Matrix clients are available for most operating systems including mobiles.
- Matrix can be accessed from most browsers including Tor browser.
- Messages and files shared in private rooms are by default end-to-end encrypted (E2EE).
I am proposing the new room be created within the Monero Matrix Space.
There is precedent in the Monero Matrix Space for adding projects in the Monero Ecosystem. Rooms already in the Monero Matrix Space for example include:
- Monero.
- Monero Events.
- Monero Community Workgroup.
- Haveno.
- Feather Wallet.
- Monero Mining.
I am of the opinion that should this proposal be accepted, the location of the new P2P room would best fit into the existing Monero Matrix Space, however, I am open to feedback. Should it be agreed the Monero Matrix Space is best place to locate the room I would require one of the admins to create the room and give my Matrix user ID admin rights for the new room.
Bisq has also done something similar. They have a 'Buy your First BTC' room hosted on their Matrix space for users looking to aquire their first bitcoin for trading on Bisq. The P2P Monero room would function in a similar way but be for Monero rather than Bitcoin.
Why is a new peer-to-peer trading solution needed?
Fiat on and off ramps help bridge the gap between traditional finance and Monero. They serve as an essential tool for people wanting to convert their fiat to Monero and vice versa. Having fiat on ramps is also an important way to make Monero more accessible to new potential users, increase Monero's reach to a broader audience, and, accelerate adoption.
Easy on and off ramps are a good way to grow Monero's user-base. Having on and off ramps for fiat with no KYC also helps users go in and out of Monero freely.
I assume most reading this will have a good understanding of why KYC is bad. For those less familiar I would recommend reading the info provided by KYCnot.me
Why is a new peer-to-peer trading solution needed?
Fiat on and off ramps are important for both existing and potential Monero users. Unfortunately, it is getting harder and harder for people to access these on and off ramps.
Here is a list of events that have had a negative effect on people wanting to buy and sell Monero for fiat:
- Binance delisted Monero
- Kraken continues to delist Monero from more and more markets UK, Ireland and Belgium
- Local Monero is shutting down its services
- LocalCryptos closed in 2002
These examples are the ones that come to mind from memory. I am sure there are other examples from the past, and, unfortunately there will be more examples of Monero being delisted in the future. The more fiat on and off ramps that exist for Monero the better it is for everyone.
Why now when some solutions are already available (or coming soon)?
The Monero ecosystem is healthy and new ways to trade Monero are being worked on.
Here is a comparison of some of the alternatives for people wanting to buyer and sell Monero for fiat now Local Monero is closing:
| Service | Fiat | Tor | Monero (or crypto) required to trade | Trade Fees | KYC | Mobile friendly |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Serai DEX | No | No** | Yes | Yes | No | Yes |
| Haveno* | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No | No |
| Unstoppable Swap | No | Yes | Yes | No | No | Yes |
| Trocador | No | Yes | Yes | Yes | No | Yes |
| P2P Monero Matrix Room | Yes | Yes | No | No | No | Yes |
Haveno* when launched will be a good P2P platform for buying and selling Monero. However you will need Monero to make a trade. This is because Monero will be required for the security deposit. As a result this means that a potential user with no Monero will need a good way of obtaining their first Monero. I anticipate the proposed P2P Matrix room would serve this function well. Small trades could take place in the Matrix room (<$500 or equivalent) and larger trades could then take place on Haveno.
@kayabaNerve** Users may use UIs over Tor, so users may be protected by Tor, but that's the Serai / UI distinction which isn't represented properly here.
What are the requirements of a peer-to-peer trading solution?
A good peer to peer trading solution would:
- Be accessible from a mobile.
- Be accessible over Tor.
- Be accessible from multiple operating systems.
- Require no KYC.
- Use E2EE for messaging.
- Have accessible support staff.
- Be built primarily for Monero trades.
- Support fiat from any country.
- Support multiple payment types.
- Allow buyers and sellers to build up reputation.
This proposal achieves all the above.
What are the benefits of this solution?
There are many benefits, including:
Quick and Easy way to buy and sell Monero for fiat
It is a quick an simple way to have a peer-to-peer trading solution for people wanting to buy and sell Monero for fiat with no KYC. People using instant payment types will be able to complete the trades within 10 minutes.
Accessible from anywhere
Users have a large choice of clients they can use to access the room. If they have a device and an internet connection they will be able to trade.
All funds will be self custodial.
Users will be expected to hold their own keys and trade from wallets they have control of. There is no need for any intermediaries. The room itself is just set up to match buyer and seller.
Privacy
A P2P exchange that can be do with only two parties knowing the trade took place is pretty good for privacy.
What are the potential issues?
Here are some potential issues:
Homeservers
There seems to a recent, but currently unresolved, issue with how users on matrix.org and monero.social homeservers can communicate with each other. I am aware of this and will take it into consideration when writing guidelines for users if the issue remains unresolved.
Legal issues
This room will be a friendly space for people wanting to buy and sell Monero. Some people might not like Monero users having an easy way to buy and sell Monero. People should ensure they abide by their own local laws etc. This room is just a place for people interested in doing a small trade between themselves. It is similar to a someone selling some Monero to a friend that is interested in gaining more financial privacy. Users coming to the room with stories about looking to cash in their dark net market gains, or find someone to help launder their money etc will be promptly removed from the room. This room will be a friendly place for users to buy and sell Monero. Any discussion about illegal activities will not be tolerated.
Banks
Sending Monero is easy. Sending fiat will be the source of more problems; delayed payments, account limit issues, frozen accounts etc. Users will be supported with any issues they experience should they require it during the trade process.
Scammers
The Matrix room will be accessible to anyone. This means scammers might try and take advantages of other users. This could involve a buyer sending payment and doing a charge-back, or a seller taking payment and not sending the Monero. Generally if users follow trade guideline, start trading with small amounts, and do not always re-use the same peer the risks will be largely mitigated. When the community is established I also think it will help police itself. Scammers will be quickly called out, identified and banned. The use of fiat accounts, and low recommended trade amounts will also limit the attractiveness of the room to scammers. I do not foresee scammers being a big issue. The community will be largely made up of Monero enthusiasts, and pretty savvy when it comes to security and spotting potential red flags.
What will I do?
I will break down this proposal into two main stages; setup and management.
Setup
The initial work will be to set up the room. This will involve:
- Liaising with Monero Matrix Space Admins regarding the creation of the room.
- Setting up the P2P Matrix room.
- Posting links to P2P Matrix room in relevant locations.
- Documentation of trading rules and trading guidelines.
- Documenting the dispute process (to include what the traders should expect).
- Documentation of a way for buyers and sellers to link their Local Monero reputation to their Matrix IDs in the P2P room (assuming Local Monero allow people to post their Matrix IDs on their profiles).
I am expecting the above to involve about 40 hours of work.
Management
Once the room is set up trading can commence. The work required will then be about managing the room. This involves the following:
- Moderating the P2P room.
- Banning spammers from room.
- Banning scammers from room.
- Answering questions from traders.
- Signposting traders to relevant rules and guidelines.
- Assisting buyers and sellers when trades enter a dispute.
- Updating and expanding on documentation; trading rules, guidelines, payment types.
I am sure there might be a few other bits and pieces also needed, but I am happy to cover them as they arise.
I will be available for 15 hour per week on an on-going basis to deliver on the above management requirements.
What is the turn around time?
Monero users are in need of a peer-to-peer solution to be available as soon as possible. Should this proposal be accepted I will complete the first phase within approximately 30 days. This will allow trades to commence within 30 days of a propsal being accepted.
What are the dependencies?
The only dependency is for one of the three current Monero Matrix Space admins to create a room and give admin rights to the newly created room to myself.
Who am I?
I am an anon. I have created this ID to make this proposal. With regards my skill-set:
- I have the technical ability to implement the things outlined in this proposal.
- I am able to verify Monero payments when supplied with the relevant information.
- I have the communication skills to provide a high level of service to users of the room and will be able effectively support any users requiring trades to enter a dispute process.
- I am able to create effective documentation that users can refer to.
- I am committed to the development of Monero.
Why should we trust you?
In regards to delivering on the above, there is no need to trust me. I will not make any request for payment until I have delivered upon each milestone.
In regards to users trusting me with their payment details should a trade enter a dispute they will need to trust me not to share this information. I will take this responsibility seriously. I will not keep any information longer than necessary and will delete data regularly. I would stress however that users will need to also trust their trade counter-party not to share this information. Privacy is paramount. Any users sharing private information will be banned from the room and their messages will be removed.
Should the room become popular or the workload becomes unmanageable for myself I would look to add another moderator to the room to assist myself with some of the management functions. This would be disclosed to the users of the room. Ideally this role would be taken by an active user of the room.
FAQ
I thought it would be useful to put together a list of FAQs for the proposed service:
Q. Will there be any trading fees?
A. No, there will be no trading fees.
Q. If there are no trading fees how will the room make money?
A. There are no plans for the room to make money. This proposal will however funds me for the time I dedicate to this project. This CCS proposal is intended to help bootstrap the idea. If approved once the funds have been used then I am open to the idea of making another CCS proposal or having some kind of donation address that happy users can donate to.
Q. How will you ensure that the Monero buyer has sent the fiat to the Monero seller?
A. In the case of a dispute the seller will provide the following; a copy of the proof of payment to the seller. This will be used to verify the correct payment was sent. The seller's payment details can also be verified through messages sent between the buyer and seller.
Q. How will you ensure that the Monero seller has sent the XMR to the Monero buyer?
A. In the case of a dispute the seller will provide the following; transaction ID, recipient address, secret transaction key. This will be used to verify payment was sent. The recipient address can also be verified through messages sent between the buyer and seller.
Q. Who will send payment first?
A. The Monero buyer will send the payment first. Once payment is received the seller will send the Monero to the buyer.
Q. What happens if the seller does not send the Monero to the buyer?
A. The Monero buyer can open a dispute. I will then request proof of payment from the buyer and liaise with the seller. If the seller does not respond or fails to show proof of Monero payment they will be banned from the room.
Q. What happens after a trade?
A. The buyer and seller are expected to post feedback in the room, unless both agree not to. Just something simple. For example buyer posts 'Thanks XXX for the smooth trade, Monero received quickly'. The seller would post something like 'XXX sent the USD quickly, trade went well'.
Q. How does the buyer make an offer?
A. They can make a post in the room. For example 'I am looking to buy $100 USD of Monero using Zelle'. Or alternatively the can specify the XMR amount 'I want to buy 2 XMR with Euros, I can pay by SEPA Instant or Revolut' Monero sellers can then respond to the messages from buyers in the room.
Q. How does the seller make an offer?
A. They can make a post in the room. For example 'I am selling XMR for GBP. I can accept payment via Faster Payments.'
Q. What currencies are supported?
A. All currencies are supported.
Q. What payment methods are supported?
A. All payment methods are supported where charge-backs risk is low.
Q. Can this be used buy Monero with bitcoin, etherum, dodge, USDT etc?
A. Yes, any crypto used to buy Monero will need to have a provable way of verifying payment. For example provable on a blockchain explorer.
Q. Will there be any trade limits?
A. To keep users safe it will be recommend they keep each trade to under $500 or equivalent. Once the trade has completed they can make more trades. New users, or buyers wanting to trade with new sellers should keep the trades smaller to start with to reduce risk.
Q. Will there be trade rules?
A. Yes, trades rules will be created to keep things running smoothly for all users.
Q. Can I send cash in the mail?
A. It is up to users to decide what payment types they are comfortable with. The recommended payment types will be the ones that are instant as this will reduce the chance of a dispute occurring.
Q. I am interested in being a seller but do not like the idea of linking my payment method to by Matrix username.
A. I understand, you can always create a new username for trading. Creating a matrix username is easy. If someone is very privacy conscious they could even create a new username for every trade.
Q. I am an active seller on Local Monero, is there a way to import my reputation?
A. Local Monero users should be able to link to their Matrix username from their Local Monero account to veryify who they are in the room. if they want they can also choose the same username to make past Local Monero users recognize them easier.
Q. Who will know about the trades?
A. For all successful trades the only person that will no about the trades will be the buyer and seller. For trades entering disputes they will need to share the information with myself. I will only keep this information whilst the trade is in dispute. Once the dispute has finished any information provided will be destroyed. The room will also know that a trade took place if the buyer and seller agree to provide feedback for each other but they will not know any trade information.
Q. If a dispute is raised how long should I expect before I receive a reply?
A. You should expect a reply within 24 hours.
Q. Will the Monero seller charge a markup?
A. It is for buyers and sellers to agree the price between themselves. That could involve a markup or a discount. I expect most sellers will have a small markup. Similar to Local Monero. If a buyer is unhappy with the markup they can choose another seller. If the seller does not want to sell Monero for the buyers suggested price they do no have to take the trade. The marketplace will figure out the price on its own.
Q. Will there be scammers on the platform?
A. This room will be aimed at Monero enthusiasts. People interested in Monero that are looking to buy and sell Monero for fiat. If a scammer appears (either a buyer trying to make chargebacks or a seller not sending the Monero) the community of users will quickly call them out and they will be banned. It makes sense for buyer and sellers in the room to want to build up their reputation so I expect the number of scammers to be low. That being said it makes sense for all users to follow the rules and guidance to minimize the chance of being scammed. The recommended limits being low will also help to mitigate any losses.
Q. Can I get involved?
A. My plan is to keep things simple not to grow into a Binance! That being said if the room grows in users it would be useful to have additional room moderators and help with any documentation. Once the project is set up and growing I would welcome the assistance of anyone wanting to help.
Funding:
I am proposing the funding for the first 2 years of the project. This will be enough time to bootstrap to ensure it becomes a useful on and off ramp for Monero.
| Milestone | Description | Hourly rate | Number of hours | USD amount | XMR amount |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Setup | $65/ph | 40 | $2,600 | 20.8 |
| 2 | Management (0-6 months) | $65/ph | 390 | $25,350 | 202.8 |
| 3 | Management (6-12 months) | $65/ph | 390 | $25,350 | 202.8 |
| 4 | Management (12-18 months) | $65/ph | 390 | $25,350 | 202.8 |
| 5 | Management (18-24 months) | $65/ph | 390 | $25,350 | 202.8 |
*Management time is based on 15 hours per week.
The total amount for setting up and managing the P2P room for the first 2 years will be $104,000 / 832 XMR.
Requests for payment will be made only after each stage has been delivered.
The Monero amounts above are what will be requested regardless on any increase or decrease in the price in USD terms.
Merge request reports
Activity
Wanted to note that the Haveno network of Reto has plans to make the fee of the taker to 0% for small amounts, which would enable someone to buy Monero without having some as a requirement.
Compared to Haveno,This proposal is like making a centralized server (with the exception of no control over the accounts) with only one arbitrator payed by community instead of fee traders.
I think Haveno is a much more efficient way for noobies to get their first xmr and that this work proposed won't be needed.
Also I think that 65$/h for moderation/management is too much, that's the rate of developer which is much more valuable. (more people can do moderation/administration than programming).
I vote no, but if for some reason Reto can't remove the taker fees for small amount, I would change my mind if the hourly rate are lowered or justified with convincing reasons.
Haveno users will need to pay trade fees and put up an XMR security deposit to be able to trade. If you remove the trade fees for the taker then what would you do about the requirement for a security deposit? If a security deposit is required users would still need XMR to buy or sell Monero.
Haveno users are also unable to trade from a mobile phone. This proposal would allow for trades to be completed using a mobile phone from anywhere.
This proposal would enable new people coming to Monero to quickly obtain Monero to use with Haveno.
Matrix is an open protocol for decentralized, communication. More rooms can be created if required. Control of the accounts accessing the room would be comparable to the control Haveno operators have. For my proposal the arbitrators can be scaled up or down as necessary. Same as with Haveno.
What hourly rate do you think would be more appropriate?
Haveno users will need to pay trade fees and put up an XMR security deposit to be able to trade. If you remove the trade fees for the taker then what would you do about the requirement for a security deposit? If a security deposit is required users would still need XMR to buy or sell Monero.
Sorry I was not precised enough: the plan is I think to also remove the security deposit for small amounts to be able to obtain xmr without having any. This needs to be confirmed if it is possible without any issues.
Haveno users are also unable to trade from a mobile phone. This proposal would allow for trades to be completed using a mobile phone from anywhere.
Fair point, but there is no technical issue preventing building an app for Haveno AFAIK. In that case, your solution could be temporary while someone builds an UI for mobile phone if there is not the chicken egg problem anymore.
In general I'm against trading in chatroom because it is simply not a good experience for the user. How do you intend to offer a way for users to know which offers are currently available ? scrolling up the chat is just terrible and a waste of time. But it can be useful as a short term solution.
What hourly rate do you think would be more appropriate?
The only valuable hours are the setup that you could ask to be paid like a server administrator.
What is your experience in server administration with real world usage example ?And in your setup you should mention the fact that you will install an instance of matrix accessible as an onion service. I think it is worth mentioning because this configuration is not the simplest as it is not common.
The moderation time is almost worthless today, you can pay peoples over the world centimes to get moderation done. What would make a moderator more valuable is that he proved with his time passed in the community to be trustworthy enough.
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Sorry I was not precised enough: the plan is I think to also remove the security deposit for small amounts to be able to obtain XMR without having any. This needs to be confirmed if it is possible without any issues.
Removing the security deposits for small trades would be useful if a little complicated to achieve without issues.
Fair point, but there is no technical issue preventing building an app for Haveno AFAIK
If an app gets built and users can access Haveno though a mobile then that would be great. Trying to run a p2p network over Tor on a phone is a big undertaking though. Nothing like it exists.
In general I'm against trading in chatroom because it is simply not a good experience for the user. How do you intend to offer a way for users to know which offers are currently available ? scrolling up the chat is just terrible and a waste of time. But it can be useful as a short term solution.
It will be quickly obvious to new users in a Matrix room what sellers have the best reputation. They can contact them an agree a trade. If they do not see the any sellers that are available for their currency they can post their own offer.
But it can be useful as a short term solution.
Agreed, if Haveno is able to support users in the global south with no computer access to buy and sell Monero easily then I will be impressed. But I think it will not happen for a long time. This proposal will allow trades between anyone with a phone anywhere in the world. Should Haveno or another service develop a better solution I would happily retire this room if the trading volume dropped.
And in your setup you should mention the fact that you will install an instance of matrix accessible as an onion service. I think it is worth mentioning because this configuration is not the simplest as it is not common.
Matrix servers are already accessible via Tor. The proposal is for the room to be part of the Monero Matrix Space. This already exists.
The moderation time is almost worthless today, you can pay peoples over the world centimes to get moderation done. What would make a moderator more valuable is that he proved with his time passed in the community to be trustworthy enough.
Agreed, that is why I have proposed not receiving payment for any management until the service has been running for 6 months. People will be able to judge the success by the high number of trades taking place in the room and happy buyers and sellers. It the room is not a success I will not ask for payment.
Trying to run a p2p network over Tor on a phone is a big undertaking though. Nothing like it exists.
That's a bold claim. There is no issue for creating a p2p app if you are using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_punching_(networking)
Syncthing does it for example. And tor works fine too https://f-droid.org/fr/packages/org.onionshare.android.fdroid
It will be quickly obvious to new users in a Matrix room what sellers have the best reputation. They can contact them an agree a trade. If they do not see the any sellers that are available for their currency they can post their own offer.
Can you explain more ? how will it be obvious ? If I'm new and I enter the room, what will I see first ? Do I need to read the history of the chat to understand what's going on ?
What I think from our conversation is that indeed your service can be useful, but I'm still thinking you are over-evaluate it. Even if we pay you after 6 months, it would not be worth 60$/h.
It is only an approximation but a trusted and competent moderator with 2 years of experience would not be worth more than 25$/h.
I don't know if this website is a good indication or not but that's give an idea.
https://www.indeed.com/career/moderator/salaries
You can't claim more than medium salary with no previous history. Or do you have history ?you want 100k to admin a matrix room? this is a bad joke, right?
or what am i missing. i didn't read the full details... but it looks like you are asking for 832xmr to be a jannie?
what hourly rate is appropriate? $0 $2600 usd and 40hrs to setup a matrix room? it takes 2mins and $0 to setup a room. 20mins and $15/mth if you host it on a new vps.
Edited by ofrnxmr-
The setup includes the following:
The initial work will be to set up the room. This will involve:
- Liaising with Monero Matrix Space Admins regarding the creation of the room.
- Setting up the P2P Matrix room.
- Posting links to P2P Matrix room in relevant locations.
- Documentation of trading rules and trading guidelines.
- Documenting the dispute process (to include what the traders should expect).
- Documentation of a way for buyers and sellers to link their Local Monero reputation to their Matrix IDs in the P2P room (assuming Local Monero allow people to post their Matrix IDs on their profiles).
I am expecting the above to involve about 40 hours of work.
I agree the administration set up of the room takes no time. The setup is for more than the administration.
you want 100k to admin a matrix room? this is a bad joke, right?
The management of the room is for 2 years worth of work (15 a week). It is to include:
- Moderating the P2P room.
- Banning spammers from room.
- Banning scammers from room.
- Answering questions from traders.
- Signposting traders to relevant rules and guidelines.
- Assisting buyers and sellers when trades enter a dispute.
- Updating and expanding on documentation; trading rules, guidelines, payment types.
What hourly rate do you think is appropriate for the management?
I can't put an amount on how much we should pay you to admin a channel, but $65 ph is preposterous. As a comparison we pay this dev $26 ph to work on the Monero codebase. So whatever you'd be entitled to, it should be much much lower than $26 ph.
