Community Meeting logs from 04-28 & 05-26

parent 00113dce
---
layout: post
title: Logs for the Community Meeting Held on 2018-04-28
summary: Community highlights, Forum Funding System updates, Localization workgroup Q&A, Monero Integrations, Monero QR GUI discussion, and miscellaneous
tags: [community, crypto]
author: el00ruobuob / SamsungGalaxyPlayer
---
# Logs
**\<ErCiccione>** It's meeting time!
**\<endogenic>** what up y'all
**\<ErCiccione>** ping sarang
**\<Osiris1>** poc poc
**\<sarang>** yo yo
**\<ErCiccione>** 0. Introduction
**\<midipoet>** hey hey
**\<ErCiccione>** Welcome everyone to this Monero Community Meeting!
**\<ErCiccione>** Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/214
**\<ErCiccione>** Monero Community meetings are a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community. We use meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support, so... let's begin!
**\<ErCiccione>** 1. Greetings
**\<msvb-lab>** Hello.
**\<ArticMine>** Hi
**\<cryptochangement>** hello everyone
**\<Osiris1>** hello
**\<sarang>** heyo
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** Hello
**\<\_Slack> \<alexmu>** Hi
**\<serhack>** Hi :)
**\<nasawelder>** hi (QR GUI guy)
**\<gingeropolous>** hi
**\<onodera>** hello
**\<xmrscott[m]>** Hello
**\<onodera>** can anyone tell me what kind of stuff gets discussed here?
**\<midipoet>** hi everyone
**\<ErCiccione>** onodera: agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/214
**\<serhack>** onodera: this is the community meeting for the Monero Community workgroup. Here we are going to discuss about community updates and ideas!
**\<ErCiccione>** lot of people today. good!
**\<endogenic>** onodera: exactly!
**\<onodera>** interesting, thanks ErCiccione and serhack
**\<ErCiccione>** 2. Community highlights
**\<ErCiccione>** m2049r's FFS proposal has been completely funded, this means 3 more months of Monerujo developing! Congratulations!
**\<ErCiccione>** Link to the FFS proposal: https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required/90038/m2049r-part-time-for-3-months
**\<ErCiccione>** also, fluffypony merged a lot of PRs few hours ago, new cool stuff for the next release!
**\<ErCiccione>** Anybody have updates to share? don't be shy!
**\<cryptochangement>** me me
**\<cryptochangement>** oh wait not yet lol
**\<endogenic>** too late
**\<cryptochangement>** well if nobody else has something to mention...
**\<onodera>** I've been working on a self-hosted web-wallet for Monero the past few months: it's really not anything usable yet but it's starting to take shape: https://github.com/onodera-punpun/sako
**\<ErCiccione>** let's wait a minute cryptochangement :)
**\<onodera>** dont' know if this is relevant to what should be discussed here? :)
**\<cryptochangement>** agreed ErCiccione
**\<midipoet>** i have something to mention, but was going to wait till 'ideas' time
**\<cryptochangement>** onodera: that sounds interesting. how does it differ from say openmonero?
**\<onodera>** cryptochangement: the idea is that it's self hosted, so you don't depend on a third party
**\<endogenic>** onodera: same with openmonero
**\<ErCiccione>** midipoet: noted for open ideas later
**\<onodera>** so kind of like the transmission (torrent client) web interface
**\<onodera>** ah I suppose that I made it myself hehe
**\<onodera>** I mainly just started this project to learn more about Go and the monero RPC methods
**\<endogenic>** good way to learn those
**\<serhack>** +1 onodera :)
**\<ErCiccione>** well, the more the better. Looking forward to see some updates on that onodera
**\<hrumag>** OT: Guys, relay on mattermost does not work
**\<ErCiccione>** hrumag: thanks, can you write that on mattermost, so who wants to attend the meeting can use another platform
**\<ErCiccione>** any other question for onodera and his self hosted web wallet?
**\<hrumag>** erciccione: of course
**\<ErCiccione>** 3. FFS updates
**\<ErCiccione>** There are several Forum Funding System updates today:
**\<ErCiccione>** a. Monero Integrations
**\<ErCiccione>** serhack and cryptochangement asked to reserve some time to discuss their integrations, so please guys go ahead :)
**\<cryptochangement>** ok cool
**\<cryptochangement>** so basically our Opencart payment gateway is complete
**\<cryptochangement>** you can find it here https://github.com/monero-integrations.com/monerocart
**\<endogenic>** 404
**\<cryptochangement>** that also completes the final milestone of our FFS
**\<endogenic>** https://github.com/monero-integrations/monerocart
**\<serhack>** ty endogenic!
**\<endogenic>** np
**\<cryptochangement>** oops thanks
**\<cryptochangement>** any questions?
**\<endogenic>** cryptochangement with the php-fu
**\<cryptochangement>** :p
**\<cryptochangement>** if nobody has questions we can move on :)
**\<endogenic>** clear you guys did a lot of work on this
**\<serhack>** endogenic: I can confirm. Cryptochangements and sneurlax did a lot of work on php library!
**\<endogenic>** oh would it be possible to https-ify http://monerointegrations.com?
**\<endogenic>** serhack: srsly..
**\<cryptochangement>** it should have ssl
**\<cryptochangement>** https://monerointegrations.com
**\<endogenic>** your github profile link lacks ssl, fyi
**\<serhack>** it is :/ I have to redirect, thanks endogenic!
**\<endogenic>** ah ok
**\<ErCiccione>** let's move on!
**\<ErCiccione>** b. IEEE Security & Privacy on the Blockchain workshop
**\<sarang>** yes
**\<ErCiccione>** sarang attended the SPB in London, an event focused on scaling, privacy, and applications of blockchain technologies and distributed ledgers, focusing particularly on the security and efficiency of current and future implementations. He is going to give us a brief update.
**\<ErCiccione>** link to the funded FFS proposal: https://forum.getmonero.org/9/work-in-progress/90165/noether-brothers-ieee-workshop
**\<sarang>** Thanks to the community for funding my presence (and Surae's) at the workshop
**\<endogenic>** serhack: i think it could be cool to show on your homepage shops which are using the libs
**\<sarang>** There was a great audience of academics here, and two talks directly addressing Monero
**\<sarang>** One was an update on a paper discussing ways to efficiently describe ring members, which could be useful if/when we move to much larger ring sizes
**\<sarang>** had some great discussions with the author
**\<cryptochangement>** endogenic: that's a good idea
**\<sarang>** the other was a talk on possible attacks by a malicious remote node
**\<sarang>** the ideas had been disclosed to us
**\<sarang>** We have some reasonable mitigations in place, but it highlights the importance of trusting a remote node anyway
**\<sarang>** Between talks, we spoke with a Purdue researcher whose student has a proposal for altering our ring sigs to support refund txns
**\<endogenic>** serhack: you can just put a note saying "tell us if you use the lib and we'll feature you" so you can avoid some kind of contact info collection
**\<sarang>** There's a preprint draft not publicly available, and we're working on the math/security of it all
**\<endogenic>** whoa neat
**\<serhack>** great suggestion endogenic
**\<sarang>** It would be a great step to side payment channels
**\<nasawelder>** refund txs ELi5?
**\<endogenic>** sarang what's the gist of how that would work?
**\<sarang>** I send two outputs instead of one... one directed to you, one directed elsewhere, and a trigger block height
**\<sarang>** only one output is usable at a time, depending on the current block height
**\<sarang>** It required a modification to our key images
**\<endogenic>** ah
**\<sarang>** We have a way to do it that allows for combining refund outputs and standard outputs in the same ring sig
**\<sarang>** As always, conferences are great both for the presentations and for the discussions with other researchers
**\<endogenic>** i wonder if there's an attack lurking there with refunds :P
**\<sarang>** The increase in third-party Monero research is also welcome
**\<sarang>** endogenic: it's the same style of output generation
**\<sarang>** the only real trick is in the key image
**\<sarang>** and that uses a common DHKE method that's well understood
**\<sarang>** No guarantee this will be implemented, but it's well worth the study
**\<endogenic>** i'm just thinking back to zerocoin's recent thing
**\<sarang>** We'll have a writeup later on the method
**\<sarang>** It's a small tweak to the signature scheme
**\<sarang>** quite elegant
**\<sarang>** and it's optional
**\<sarang>** if you don't want refund outputs, nothing changes
**\<sarang>** and for payment channels, refund outs are only used if something hits the fan
**\<sarang>** Anyway, that's my update! My thanks for the support
**\<ErCiccione>** questions for sarang?
**\<sarang>** I can't share the preprint yet but it'll come out eventually
**\<ErCiccione>** c. Monero QR GUI discussion
**\<ErCiccione>** About a month ago, nasawelder introduced Lunlumo, a method of using a series of QR codes to send funds from an airgapped computer. See the original discussion here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/81tjrg/introducing\_lunlumo\_send\_monero\_from\_an\_airgapped/
**\<monerobux>** [REDDIT] Introducing Lunlumo, send Monero from an air-gapped computer via QR codes (self.Monero) | 100 points (98.0%) | 57 comments | Posted by NASA\_Welder | Created at 2018-03-03 - 22:33:35
**\<ErCiccione>** Since they are still interested in pursuing this idea, I offered to reserve some meeting time to get more community consensus. Sometimes ideas need persistence to move to funding required. Here is the FFS link: https://forum.getmonero.org/7/open-tasks/89997/lunlumo-cold-signing-automation-via-qr-code-full-gui-python-cli-wrapper-library
**\<ErCiccione>** nasawelder, the floor is yours
**\<sarang>** I must take off now... cheers to all
**\<ErCiccione>** thanks sarang!
**\<nasawelder>** My interests are in automation and security
**\<endogenic>** see you, sarang
**\<nasawelder>** Lunlumo currently can do tx's from cold computer
**\<nasawelder>** i want to add multisig support
**\<nasawelder>** it will be easy to bolt on features since it wraps the CLI
**\<nasawelder>** for instance, wallet address book transfer, other minor stuff
**\<nasawelder>** it could also be used to keep harware wallet itself cold
**\<nasawelder>** not sure what else to say...
**\<nasawelder>** it's a raspberry pi GUI, also, which doesn't exist
**\<\_Slack> \<alexmu>** Do the cold and hot computers look at each other screens?
**\<nasawelder>** Yes they looki at each others screens via webcam
**\<\_Slack> \<alexmu>** Cool.
**\<nasawelder>** ideal use case would be raspi to android phone
**\<\_Slack> \<alexmu>** Makes sense.
**\<nasawelder>** like a checking account to back-pocket wallet withdrawal/top-up
**\<ErCiccione>** That sounds cool, i would love to see the proposal moved to funding required
**\<endogenic>** nasawelder: can you build it as an embeddable library?
**\<endogenic>** transfer via qr code is common among ecosystem apps
**\<nasawelder>** the CLI backend is a standalone library (API not stable
**\<endogenic>** i meant the QR streaming stuff
**\<nasawelder>** endogenic: explain a bot more your question
**\<nasawelder>** bit
**\<nasawelder>** i plan to make a standalone QR com library to
**\<endogenic>** are you writing it so that others can use your code?
**\<nasawelder>** if that is what you meant
**\<nasawelder>** yes
**\<nasawelder>** it's all open source
**\<endogenic>** cool. mymonero i don't think is interested in it at the moment but i think others are
**\<nasawelder>** source: https://github.com/nasaWelder/lunlumo
**\<endogenic>** yes
**\<endogenic>** perhaps you can get a partnership going
**\<nasawelder>** I've reached out to monerujo, cake and Xwallet
**\<nasawelder>** and provided interface spec (see source)
**\<nasawelder>** ope to establish a formal protocol
**\<nasawelder>** (explained therin)
**\<nasawelder>** hope*
**\<msvb-lab>** nasawelder: We're using qr in the hardware wallet firmware as well.
**\<nasawelder>** (not that we talk about exchange rates) I'm working on adding air gapp to trading bot
**\<endogenic>** you could try asking at a monero-dev meeting whether it makes sense to integrate into the official codebase somehow
**\<endogenic>** aside from that, how can the community help you?
**\<nasawelder>** endogenic: originally this was an idea i had for monero codebase proper, but I just decided to make it with everyone being so busy, and i only know python
**\<nasawelder>** I know how to complete my roadmap, the only thing I don'y know how to do is bundle all dependencies with my source
**\<nasawelder>** it uses some "sudo apt-get install" dependencies
**\<nasawelder>** msvb-lab: have I made something redundant?
**\<msvb-lab>** nasawelder: I didn't mean redundancy, instead I would like to indicate interest in having a good QR library available for firmware as well.
**\<nasawelder>** (also) lunlumo itself is pure python, so no need to install it compiled, (transparency +1)
**\<endogenic>** the streaming is not redundant aside from other people having implemented it
**\<endogenic>** in other projects
**\<nasawelder>** msvb-lab: I'm interested in helping
**\<endogenic>** nasawelder: go for it in c++ i say. someone is working on it in monero gui right now
**\<nasawelder>** endo: i gotcha, well the streaming is automated within tx workflow which is like 5 steps, so that's what I'm selling : user experience
**\<endogenic>** people will support you
**\<msvb-lab>** nasawelder: If you want to help in firmware, please become a team member to make communication easier:
**\<msvb-lab>** taiga.getmonero.org/project/michael-rfc-hwallet-1-implementation/
**\<nasawelder>** will do
**\<endogenic>** nasawelder: any reason it cant be done in the gui?
**\<nasawelder>** the official monero gui?
**\<endogenic>** yes. a build variant
**\<nasawelder>** no, just I don't know c++ so i made it in python
**\<endogenic>** i mean the codebase is large
**\<endogenic>** and so many different ppl work on it
**\<nasawelder>** original goal was to inspire it into the official GUI,k hopefully I've blazed a trail, at least
**\<endogenic>** but i'm certain we can work it out modularly
**\<endogenic>** nasawelder: think it's all you bro
**\<endogenic>** but hey there's always hope
**\<endogenic>** the c++ has examples in the codebase already
**\<endogenic>** you know python so you're fine
**\<endogenic>** i believe in you
**\<nasawelder>** anyways, thanks y'all
**\<ErCiccione>** anything you want to add nasawelder?
**\<nasawelder>** CLI features can be added to lunlumo very quickly as they come out
**\<nasawelder>** so that's why i like python
**\<nasawelder>** that's all
**\<endogenic>** i rly meant it fwiw
**\<nasawelder>** it's ok, I have a toddler, so someone else can pick up the c++ torch
**\<ErCiccione>** ok, let's see if there are further questions and then we can move on to open ideas time
**\<ErCiccione>** no wait, there's my update before open ideas :P
**\<msvb-lab>** My idea is to upload a video of the latest status of the hardware wallet, but I don't know how to find the right place.
**\<msvb-lab>** ...in open ideas, but possibly my question came too early?
**\<endogenic>** youtube? or are they evil
**\<endogenic>** and does it matter
**\<endogenic>** :p
**\<msvb-lab>** endogenic: There is a media.getmonero.org or something.
**\<ErCiccione>** msvb-lab: one last FFS update then we can move on, but before you midipoet had something to say
**\<ErCiccione>** d. Localization workgroup Q&A
**\<msvb-lab>** ErCiccione: Yes, thanks. No problem.
**\<midipoet>** thanks!
**\<ErCiccione>** ok, about localization
**\<ErCiccione>** the localization of monerujo is going very well, you can see on taiga what's in progress and ready.. a lot of stuff:
**\<ErCiccione>** https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/erciccione-monero-localization/us/163?milestone=28
**\<endogenic>** msvb-lab: seems long lived for transient media
**\<endogenic>** msvb-lab: plus hosting there will burden server - may want to find a CDN
**\<endogenic>** msvb-lab: but maybe ask rehrar
**\<ErCiccione>** endogenic: please, let's wait for that
**\<ErCiccione>** the monero GUI is being refactored so we will need to refresh it again, this will happen probably next week during a code freeze. i will open an issue on github when the time will come
**\<ErCiccione>** nothing more to add
**\<ErCiccione>** any question?
**\<ErCiccione>** ooook
**\<hrumag>** yeah, i've got one. the refreshing of the original strings of monero GUI is the same of monerujo?
**\<ErCiccione>** hrumag: no it works quite differently, it will be easier 'cause i will make the refresh and translators will only need to translate the new strings
**\<hrumag>** erciccione: good to know
**\<ErCiccione>** Does anyone else have a FFS update or any last question?
**\<Alex\_LocalMonero>** Workgroup meeting still on?
**\<endogenic>** you know it
**\<msvb-lab>** endogenic: Is there a media server or not? I'm confused.
**\<endogenic>** no idea
**\<endogenic>** ErCiccione: when monero ffs ico?
**\<msvb-lab>** I thought there was something like media.getmonero.org, I'm just getting the URL name wrong
**\<ErCiccione>** msvb-lab: endogenic: there is, don't remember the exact link now, but i'm sure it exists
**\<msvb-lab>** ErCiccione: Same with me, I saw the URL in some place, but have forgotten it.
**\<msvb-lab>** Nobody here knows the media server URL?
**\<ErCiccione>** let's finish the meeting first msvb-lab then we can investigate :)
**\<ErCiccione>** 4. Open ideas time
**\<ErCiccione>** It’s open ideas time! Feel free to propose your ideas to this discussion group, and feel free to comment on others’ ideas. If you disagree with the idea, please reply with constructive criticism. Thank you!
**\<ErCiccione>** midipoet, you first. msvb-lab then
**\<midipoet>** great thanks!
**\<midipoet>** I am going to try and keep this relatively short, but am open to any follow on questions through here, through email, or through reddit (same username).
**\<midipoet>** I am currently involved in an academic research project. Its concern is Privacy, and more specifically, perspectives of privacy within blockchain.
**\<midipoet>** I have proposed to use the Monero community to gather qualitative data (through semi-structured anonymous interviews - probably over some text based platform). This is mainly because a number of key groups can be found here (users, cryptographers, protocol designers), and i know this community, and some know me.
**\<endogenic>** midipoet: what field of academia? sociology sort of thing?
**\<midipoet>** Information Science
**\<midipoet>** Researching emerging financial technology
**\<midipoet>** so probably more soft science, than hard....
**\<midipoet>** From the interviews, perspectives will be compared with others from the industry (corporate blockchain architects, legislators, and regulators). With the help of university i am based at (University College Cork, Ireland) i have access to a lot of these groups. Mainly HyperLedger developers, employees at the Central Bank of Ireland, and some members from the GDPR committee.
**\<midipoet>** The idea is to try and figure out what different groups actually think Privacy is or is not, and then compare them.
**\<midipoet>** It’s all well and good that all these different groups approach and negotiate aspects of privacy through blockchain, but most of the time groups (or individuals) don’t actually know what others think privacy is, or is not (and it often changes from individual to individual, context to context, culture to culture, etc etc).
**\<endogenic>** lol
**\<midipoet>** (yeah these are all pre-typed to save time)
**\<endogenic>** do people really differ on defining the term privacy?
**\<midipoet>** yes, i think there is massive spectrum
**\<midipoet>** certainly my initial research has shown this
**\<endogenic>** curious to hear two of your datapoints
**\<midipoet>** I have written two papers already. one is theory lite
**\<endogenic>** what is the range?
**\<midipoet>** https://pastebin.com/QirgSE1b
**\<midipoet>** and one is theory heavy
**\<midipoet>** https://pastebin.com/7r0RR0rr
**\<midipoet>** it depends your perspective on what privacy is. some people see it as right, some as value based commodity, some as cognitive concept
**\<midipoet>** and so on...
**\<midipoet>** some a mixture of all the above
**\<endogenic>** you said definition of privacy though
**\<midipoet>** the core differences come (and most interestingly) on what levels of privacy should be afforded
**\<endogenic>** ok
**\<midipoet>** and also, whether its state or system that should protect it (if its a right)
**\<midipoet>** I have mentioned this research to the MRL, and they have been supportive. I am hoping members of the dev team and cryptographers will engage with the qualitative interview process (i will also be in the MRL meeting on the 30th to talk further with them)
**\<midipoet>** What i am hoping is that members of the wider community will also get involved. And this is why i am here….basically to ask if anyone is interested in talking about what they believe privacy is, why it is important, what the context is, who should protect it, what system should protect it, is it a right, etc etc etc.
**\<endogenic>** dont think anyone here is interested in privacy
**\<midipoet>** lol
**\<midipoet>** i think that's kind of it. i know that's a barrage of info, and i apologise. but any questions?
**\<ErCiccione>** this is extremely interesting, i would love to participate and i'm sure also many community members will
**\<midipoet>** thanks
**\<ErCiccione>** contact rehrar, he would love this
**\<ErCiccione>** \*will
**\<endogenic>** midipoet: do you use surveys, mainly?
**\<midipoet>** i also think its really interesting. I am aiming for top level journals and conferences, as i think Monero deserves it.
**\<midipoet>** endogenic: it is semi structured interviews, in an explorative study
**\<midipoet>** mainly using Monero as a sort of 'index case'
**\<midipoet>** or the Monero community, i should say
**\<xmrmatterbridge> \<cypherperro>** I would also love to contribute
**\<midipoet>** Personally i think it is important that we negotiate the ideological aspects of privacy as a community, together. Especially as legislation and regulation is bound to appear in the future (and has started to already).
**\<ErCiccione>** ^^ +1
**\<serhack>** Privacy is fundamental.
**\<serhack>** Nobody can stop us!
**\<midipoet>** I think if we are able to put forward and compare and contrast across social groups/stakeholders, privacy rights can be negotiated
**\<UkoeHB>** I think Olufunmilayo would like to get that interview. You can find in #monero sometimes
**\<endogenic>** midipoet: what principle do you use in interpreting and organizing answers?
**\<midipoet>** endogenic: i am not sure i understand the question. If you are asking what methodology for interpreting? The IS literature points to open axial coding
**\<midipoet>** to be honest, IS methodology is not my strong point (but is my supervisors), who is an old friend of mine
**\<midipoet>** as its an exploratory study, i think strong methodology can emerge as i go
**\<midipoet>** as i am sure themes will emerge as i go
**\<midipoet>** so can i ask, for whoever wants to contribute to email me? is that fair?
**\<midipoet>** if more anonymity is required, you can also contact me on Reddit.
**\<midipoet>** i can also provide a PGP key if needed
**\<endogenic>** well this is no longer relevant but i'm curious about IS and would expect there was some way to confirm the precision of identification of codes in the first place
**\<ErCiccione>** sure it is midipoet, leave here your contacts if you wish,
**\<endogenic>** good luck
**\<midipoet>** [email protected]
**\<midipoet>** u/midipoet on Reddit
**\<midipoet>** Thanks for listening....
**\<ErCiccione>** perfect, it's getting late now, you can keep talking about this after the meeting if you want
**\<endogenic>** longest community mtg ever :P
**\<ErCiccione>** thank you midipoet
**\<midipoet>** thankyou
**\<ErCiccione>** msvb-lab: so, about this video.. :)
**\<ErCiccione>** endogenic: yep, lot of stuff today :P
**\<msvb-lab>** Yes.
**\<ErCiccione>** we will have to ask to rehrar for that link, what was your idea btw?
**\<ErCiccione>** well, the 30 minutes for the open ideas time are over folks, let's wrap this meeting up
**\<ErCiccione>** 5. Confirm next meeting date/time
**\<ErCiccione>** The next community meeting will be two weeks from today on 28 April.
**\<ErCiccione>** 6. Conclusion
**\<ErCiccione>** That’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, we hope to see you on /r/MoneroCommunity and #monero-community. Take care and remember there is only one Monero, stay away from all those scammy forks!
**\<ErCiccione>** See you around!
**\<ErCiccione>** the meeting is over, but please, don't let the discussion die, if you have anything you want to talk about... please do!
**\<serhack>** thank you Erciccione!
**\<midipoet>** yes, thank you Erciccione
**\<serhack>** https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/8flnzi/finally\_released\_monero\_payment\_gateway\_for/
**\<monerobux>** [REDDIT] Finally released Monero Payment Gateway for OpenCart (self.Monero) | 2 points (100.0%) | 0 comments | Posted by serhack | Created at 2018-04-28 - 18:15:41
**\<ErCiccione>** whoo, this was a long one still within the 1.5 hrs tho :P
**\<ErCiccione>** thank you guys :)
**\<\_Slack> \<alexmu>** Long and great. Thank you.
\ No newline at end of file
---
layout: post
title: Logs for the Community Meeting Held on 2018-05-26
summary: Community highlights, Forum Funding System updates, Localization workgroup Q&A, Core Team FFS funds reallocation discussion, and miscellaneous
tags: [community, crypto]
author: el00ruobuob / rehrar
---
# Logs
**\<rehrar>** let's start a minute early
**\<rehrar>** so we can end a minute early
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Why would 0.12.1.0 only have auto popping for Windows? :P
**\<cryptochangement>** i'm down
**\<cryptochangement>** that's precious time
**\<rehrar>** https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/224
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** solid plan
**\<rehrar>** 0. Introduction
**\<rehrar>** Hi everyone, welcome to the meeting.
**\<pwrcycle>** hi all
**\<rehrar>** 1. Greetings
**\<ArticMine>** hi
**\<cryptochangement>** wazzup errybody
**\<xmrscott[m]>** Salutaions
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** hi"
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** Hey
**\<Caesarion>** heya.
**\<rehrar>** It appears we have a quorum
**\<rehrar>** 2. Community highlights
**\<rehrar>** So...stuff has happened in the community.
**\<rehrar>** sgp usually has stuff prepared, but he's dead to us for the next day or so
**\<rehrar>** and he asked me last night so I didn't have much time to prepare, I apologize.
**\<xmrscott[m]>** Thanks to rehrar and pigeons our Taiga instance is upgraded to 3.3 This introduces two noteworthy features: being able to assign multiple members to a task and tasks having Due Dates to help priortize tasks. Hopefully both should be useful to whatever workgroup(s) you find yourself in. More release notes can be found here: https://blog.taiga.io/taiga-picea-mariana-release-330.html
**\<rehrar>** let's do it this way: "Have you done anything exciting recently for Moenro?"
**\<cryptochangement>** *crickets*
**\<cryptochangement>** endogenic and MyMonero team has their dope MyMonero app in pre-release
**\<rehrar>** oh yeah, das purty cool
**\<pwrcycle>** not exactly for monero, but i coded up sterlingVPN.com to use extend my PaymentID usage for signups.
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** the guide for the GUI is ready and a i published a PDF release
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** https://github.com/monero-ecosystem/monero-GUI-guide/releases/tag/1.1
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** the pony will embed it wit the binaries of the GUI
**\<rehrar>** which we have hope will be done one day
**\<parasew[m]>** michael from open hw and other monero community members met up in paralelni polis yesterday, they also have been discussing defcon.
**\<rehrar>** "faith is believing what you know cannot be true" ~ Abraham Einstein
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** yeah iirc he ha some problems with a failed hard drive
**\<fluffypony>** erciccione\_[m]: is there any value in embedding an HTML version in the actual GUI?
**\<cryptochangement>** you mean like package it into the .zip?
**\<fluffypony>** no I mean like embed it in an HTML viewer in a window
**\<cryptochangement>** or tarball
**\<cryptochangement>** or whatever
**\<fluffypony>** so you click help and it shows that
**\<cryptochangement>** oh cool
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** fluffypony: that would be cool actually
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** but maybe with the markdown version
**\<rehrar>** alright, any other updates?
**\<rehrar>** ok, let's get down to the nitty gritty
**\<rehrar>** We'll jump to 4. Core Team FFS funds reallocation discussion - when/how should funds be reallocated to other projects?
**\<rehrar>** pinging fluffypony ArticMine luigi1111w binaryFate smooth NoodleDoodle othe
**\<rehrar>** For those who may or may not know, there was some discussion last meeting about reallocating XMR to the hardware fund
**\<rehrar>** specifically from the seemingly failed Tracking Challenge
**\<rehrar>** the Tracking challenge did not just not reach funding goals (and expired), it also had some pretty bit problems that as of yet have not been reconciled regarding proving authenticity of someone winning the challenge
**\<rehrar>** i.e. people thought it was too easy to game. take the money for themselves, since there is a good amount of trust involved in the set up
**\<rehrar>** both proposals are available for viewing in "Funding Required": https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required
**\<ArticMine>** So the FFS was not properly conceived from the beginning?
**\<dEBRUYNE>** If you reallocate funds to a specific proposal you automatically presume the donors are okay with that particular proposal
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Which they may not be
**\<rehrar>** it would seem so ArticMine
**\<rehrar>** dEBRUYNE: but if a proposal expires, doesn't the XMR go to the general fund anyways?
**\<pwrcycle>** If it didn't reach the goal in time, re-allocating seems resonable, aside from any other issues with a proposal.
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Yes, which is the preferred option in my opinion
**\<fluffypony>** rehrar: yes, but we've never had a proposal expire because they didn't have due dates
**\<cryptochangement>** it seems like the other logical option would be to send it to the hackerone bounty since it is in the same spirit so the donors would most likely be OK with that
**\<rehrar>** we have to remember that the forum funding system is not meant to be a completely trustless option. It relies on trust of the core team. Meaning people should know when they donate to a FFS proposal that it might expire, and fall under stewardship of the core team.
**\<selsta>** who funded the hardware wallet?
**\<fluffypony>** selsta: Monero is a private cryptocurrency...
**\<rehrar>** If this makes them uncomfortable (cuz it might be given in ways they don't agree with) they can choose not to donate, or seek other funding arrangements (ala fireice)
**\<selsta>** fluffypony: :P
**\<ArticMine>** My preference is the general fund since it is neutral.
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** i think the point here is to decide a general workflow for expired proposals
**\<parasew[m]>** +1 for open hw wallet, the guys are rly doing a great job, but need more funds to proceed
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Their proposal is fully funded already fwiw
**\<rehrar>** dEBRUYNE: proposal was also made before the crash
**\<xmrmatterbridge> \<michael>** Yes, funds are enough.
**\<luigi1111w>** as the administrator, I just buy an occasional lambo. I figure it equals out.
**\<fluffypony>** LOL
**\<cryptochangement>** I kinda feel like the FFS terms (which I think is in an unmerged PR to the meta repo) should be worked into the FFS so it is easier to find
**\<dEBRUYNE>** rehrar: That's the responsibility of the proposer though
**\<fluffypony>** luigi1111w: you should bring a Lambo to Consensus 2019, really get the scandal going
**\<luigi1111w>** :)
**\<rehrar>** you guys need to show up in rag clothing. Opposite end of the spectrum.
**\<luigi1111w>** license plate: tks ffs
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Lambogate soon^tm
**\<rehrar>** show how really down to earth and humble Moenro is
**\<fluffypony>** LOL
**\<cryptochangement>** "look at fulffypony looking like a hobo after Monero tanked"
**\<cryptochangement>** - r/monero probably
**\<rehrar>** *most upvoted and commented thread in the subreddit*
**\<rehrar>** either way, there's many many FFS growing pains. Simply because many situations haven't happened.
**\<rehrar>** 0mq, firceice's, etc. This is just another.
**\<rehrar>** And how this is handled will set precedent.
**\<floam412>** fluffypony in cargo shorts, moon shirt, a 24K gold "MEA", riding shotgun in luigi's lambo
**\<rehrar>** ArticMine says general fund since it's the most neutral
**\<floam412>** whatta photo op
**\<rehrar>** I would agree with that.
**\<cryptochangement>** the general fund usually contributes to FFSes so why not just move them to the general fund and send a good portion of the reallocated funds to new FFSes that need funding
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** this is why i think we should define what to do with expired/unsuccesfull workflow instead of focusing on what to do with this specific one. what about a separed wallet for failed proposal, and we can decide on meetings where those money should go
**\<rehrar>** two formalization proposals available for discussion: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/pull/87 https://github.com/rehrar/meta/pull/1
**\<cryptochangement>** erciccione\_: It would need to be made clear to donors that funds get reallocated if a deadline isn't met
**\<rehrar>** the second one, by ajs to my repo is the one we worked on together so is the freshest one
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** the problem is that people donated for that specific proposal, so i think a feedback from the community would be necessary, before moving those funds and use them for something else
**\<ArticMine>** cryptochangement makes a very good point. The failed proposals can be used to offset part of the cost to the general fund of funding and providing seed funding to FFS
**\<floam412>** why not have the funds go into a separate wallet like erciccione was saying, but have a dedicated time bi-annually to decide on where to allocate funds and deem projects as "unsuccessful"... maybe it can follow the hardfork schedule time frame
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** cryptochangements: that's why i feel we really need to define what to do with failed proposals and keep that as a standard for the future
**\<rehrar>** but this begets the question to be asked from the core team, should the ffs terms be formalized?
**\<rehrar>** ArticMine fluffypony luigi1111w binaryFate
**\<rehrar>** or should it be fluid and flexible (at the will of the core team, since it relies on you guys anyways)
**\<endogenic>** end of the day, humans have to guide it imo
**\<ArticMine>** They can be formalized but it is important from the perspective of de centralization to keep it as simple as possible
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** floam412: we don't have that many failed proposals, i think we can decide during meetings, but we need a pattern to follow anyway
**\<rehrar>** Option 1: Core Team accepts formalization and abides by the formalized rules agreed upon by the community. Doesn't leave a lot of flexibility for edge cases, and if something isn't done exactly like in the rules, it gives ammunition to outsiders
**\<rehrar>** Option 2: We say it's better to have the flexibility on the edge cases since they are so rare, and thigns work pretty smoothly without formalization, and trust the core team to come up with good decisions on said edge cases
**\<rehrar>** (meaning we abandon a formalization endeavor)
**\<endogenic>** opt 1 sounds unnecessary and dangerous, kind of defeats the point..
**\<rehrar>** current guidelines: https://forum.getmonero.org/7/open-tasks/2379/forum-funding-system-ffs-sticky
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** fwiw, i was proposing a minimal pattern to follow, where community is involved. since they put the money
**\<pwrcycle>** I vote for Option 2. flexibility is better. This is an edge case anyway. give the funds to Core team and let them re-allocate.
**\<endogenic>** binaryFate for ex is a comp scientist, who else do we trust to give opinions on what's worth funding?
**\<ArticMine>** Or a simplified option 1 where the funds go to the general fund and in effect creates option 2, since the core team controls the general fundd
**\<rehrar>** the risk we take in option 2 is the fact that because things are ill defined, a lot of people will whine (as has happened in the past couple months) "We demand explanations for what happened to this money. It just went to the core team? How do we know they're not just enriching themselves at the expense of the community."
**\<luigi1111w>** because we never have company dinners :(
**\<rehrar>** ArticMine: I think that's the way forward, yes.
**\<rehrar>** There has also been some discussion about open accountability and transparency regarding the general fund moneys
**\<endogenic>** is the wallet view key up for publishing?
**\<selsta>** it is I think
**\<rehrar>** I think it is published, but it only does incoming, not outgoing, correct?
**\<luigi1111w>** it used to be
**\<luigi1111w>** not sure where it is now
**\<floam412>** I say option 2 as well.. but I think it would be nice to have the decision making process available out in public via a detailed explanation on reddit, bitcointalk, etc. and then people can respond to it. If there is an overwhelmingly large amount of users that are unhappy with the decision for whatever reasons, maybe decide on what to do from there
**\<endogenic>** (does that pose a danger to output taint? lol)
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** rehrar: i propose again a different wallet for failed proposals for that very reason
**\<selsta>** the viewkey is in the bitcointalk post
**\<rehrar>** we can keep track via view key of all donations made TO the general fund, but if luigi buys a new coffee mug with it, we'd never know
**\<endogenic>** rehrar can we look at what amounts contributed to a given proposal?
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Only the viewkey of the general dev fund is public afaik
**\<endogenic>** rehrar: if so we can have greater insight into accountability
**\<dEBRUYNE>** If you have the view key of the FFS wallet you can sort by payment ID
**\<rehrar>** any core team member want to remark on general fund transparency?
**\<vp11>** I don't think we will see that many failed proposals. Usually an idea is moved to "funding required" when the community already provided good feedback and intention to donate.
**\<endogenic>** yeah dEBRUYNE they could just have done multiple txs too youre right
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** dEBRUYNE: that sound like a good solution
**\<vp11>** I agree with ArticMine for a simplified option 1. funds go to general fund and stewards can apply this money elsewhere immediately if necessary.
**\<endogenic>** erciccione\_[m]: pid is not required tho no?
**\<endogenic>** plus getting phased out
**\<dEBRUYNE>** There's two things here -> 1. The general dev fund, whose view key is public | 2. The FFS wallet, whose view key is not public
**\<dEBRUYNE>** For the latter you could sort by payment ID to get donations to a specific proposal
**\<luigi1111w>** rehrar you mean like publishing key images or something?
**\<dEBRUYNE>** But you'd need the private view key
**\<vp11>** endogenic, pid is necessary when donating to specific ideas, but sometimes people can forget and talk directly to a core team member with proof of payment to allocate the resources.
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** endogenic: iirc it should be
**\<endogenic>** vp11 ah i didnt realize that was still the case
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** because that's how you know which proposal you are funding
**\<rehrar>** luigi1111w: that'd probably be the way it'd have to be done, yeah
**\<rehrar>** not my idea, mind. Just saw some talk of that over the past couple months in a few threads.
**\<rehrar>** although it is telling that these people never seem to find their way into meetings to discuss this stuff, and so could just be 'concern trolling'
**\<vp11>** I know that this is not the focus of the discussion, but maybe the FFS wallet view key should also become public so people can audit it if they want.
**\<selsta>** this whole talk started with the forum software being buggy and showing 404s for old proposals
**\<rehrar>** my above concern trolling comment applies to both the general fund and the ffs btw
**\<cryptochangement>** selsta: guess who made a big deal about that lol
**\<rehrar>** yes, my reimplementation of the ffs (which can be viewed at getmonero.org/forum-funding-system) is awaiting a couple final touches from the pony man
**\<luigi1111w>** both viewkeys being public is fine by me
**\<dEBRUYNE>** I am not sure what the benefit is of making the second view key public
**\<rehrar>** and it is Git run like the rest of the site, so everyone has a view of everything always
**\<rehrar>** no more server reliance
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** dEBRUYNE: +1, that wouldn't be useful at all imho
**\<vp11>** dEBRUYNE, you mean, for the FFS wallet?
**\<rehrar>** Here's my final thoughts on the matter. The fact that nobody who has had these 'significant problems' with the ffs or general fund attends these meetings, or is here to discuss these things at the appropriate times, signals to me that it's not that big of an issue. They just like to whine about things and don't want to see changes.
**\<selsta>** cryptochangement: our favorite concern troll lol
**\<dEBRUYNE>** vp11: yeah
**\<cryptochangement>** dEBRUYNE: yea as long as none of the people using the FFS complain about getting stiffed then there is no reason to think the core team is pocketing the money
**\<luigi1111w>** wink wink
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** rehrar: the problem is not about who made the proposal but about who funded it
**\<dEBRUYNE>** You wouldn't be able to see if they pocketed the money with merely the view key though
**\<dEBRUYNE>** One sweep\_all by luigi1111w and itsgone^tm
**\<endogenic>** rehrar: i don't necessarily agree.. have we confirmed they know they must come to these meetings?
**\<luigi1111w>** although..
**\<endogenic>** and are able to
**\<luigi1111w>** that sounds like an administrative headache
**\<luigi1111w>** "where did this output go"
**\<luigi1111w>** ugh
**\<dEBRUYNE>** :D
**\<rehrar>** erciccione\_[m]: and for this, we implement articmine's proposal. An expiry date on all ffs proposals. Goes to general fund if not.
**\<dEBRUYNE>** I'd propose to keep it simple
**\<dEBRUYNE>** And just adhere to -> An expiry date on all ffs proposals. Goes to general fund if not.
**\<selsta>** ^
**\<rehrar>** ^
**\<vp11>** FFS projects were never "very" formal, so I don't think the authors knew about expiring dates, or that they should come and report to the community meetings, etc.
**\<endogenic>** vp11: not the authors, the funders
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** that's ok for me dEBRUYNE but i would still like an imput for the community for failed proposal
**\<vp11>** as far as I'm concerned, both :P the community funded your project, both the funders and the funded have an informal obligation to do follow ups.
**\<rehrar>** we should have somewhere posted "PLEASE READ the terms of the ffs BEFORE you make a proposal or donate to one"
**\<vp11>** rehrar, you're absolutely right
**\<luigi1111w>** also please remember to start with [your name]:
**\<luigi1111w>** plz
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** s/for/from
**\<monerobux>** erciccione\_[m] meant to say: that's ok from me dEBRUYNE but i would still like an imput for the community for failed proposal
**\<vp11>** once these 'rules' and 'terms' are defined, they need to be written in a very clear form and in an accessible way to everyone participating
**\<cryptochangement>** erciccione\_: this kinda is input from the community. sgp posted on reddit saying this would be discussed so if somebody is concerned but didn't show up that's kinda their fault
**\<rehrar>** "By donating to the ffs, you agree to the informal terms laid out in xyz document"
**\<endogenic>** we should bury "free lambo" in there since no one reads those anyway
**\<rehrar>** and it's a good first barrier too. If we see a ffs proposal that doesn't meet at least those bare minimum requirements, then how can we trust them enough to actually follow through on the proposal?
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** cryptochangements: yes, i'm just saying we should use this process every time we face this issue
**\<rehrar>** although, it may not be as uncommon as we think
**\<rehrar>** Kasisto and Monero Observer have fallen off
**\<rehrar>** Although I talked with Kasisto guy and he's still going, just not as quickly as he'd have hoped.
**\<rehrar>** And I'm impressed with his work so far so I'm inclined to believe.
**\<rehrar>** I messaged Monero Observer guy, and I know he had a kid or something, so his time evaporated, but still haven't heard a response from him.
**\<rehrar>** These types of situations actually happen a decent amount
**\<vp11>** rehrar, in fact the ideas that do not adhere to the "rules" won't even be moved to "funding required".
**\<cryptochangement>** see what children do...
**\<rehrar>** and this is an issue, because the people, in their proposals, set a timeline for themselves
**\<rehrar>** i.e. "be done by January" or whateer
**\<rehrar>** and if it's not done by January, does it just automatically go to general fund, or give them an opportunity to explain themselves via meeting
**\<rehrar>** maybe they have good reason, etc.
**\<rehrar>** this needs to be in the rules too
**\<vp11>** I think you might want to remove the "judge" role as much as you can from the core team.
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** yes, that was exactly my point rehrar
**\<vp11>** How milestones work? Once I declare that I finished my proposal/milestone the core team releases the fund?
**\<rehrar>** yes, usually
**\<vp11>** so I think one viable course of action would be...
**\<rehrar>** I will remake my FFS terms proposal to be simpler along the lines of what ArticMine said
**\<vp11>** once the expire date arrives, the author has a 1 or 2 weeks grace period to go to the community meeting and "close" his project, like explaining what he did, etc.
**\<vp11>** if he can't it goes automatically to the general fund
**\<rehrar>** and PR those to the meta repo. I'd hope you all comment on it so there can be some consensus there.
**\<rehrar>** Something like that seems reasonable, but I would give a month.
**\<vp11>** if the guy comes back and the community really wants to get this project back, then he creates a new proposal and the "remaining amount" (that is now on general funds) can be moved again to the new ffs
**\<rehrar>** Since we have one of these meetings every two weeks, if he can't make one meeting, he's screweed
**\<vp11>** like this at least you don't have a core team member "judging" if someone "deserves" more time
**\<cryptochangement>** that's true, a month is probably better
**\<endogenic>** rehrar: it doesnt have to just happen at meetings
**\<endogenic>** the individual could ping anyone anytime
**\<rehrar>** https://getkovri.org/docs.html
**\<rehrar>** scroll to the bottom of the 'Contributing' page
**\<rehrar>** that is actually the standing way things are resolved (in theory)
**\<rehrar>** (i.e. it has not yet been superseded as far as I know)
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** vp11: i don't like that at all, the community put the money, the community should decide, not the core team.
**\<vp11>** that's exactly the goal
**\<rehrar>** erciccione\_[m]: that's what he's saying :)
**\<endogenic>** erciccione\_[m]: imo the core team is usually deciding based on what the community really wants
**\<rehrar>** this is true
**\<rehrar>** they have yet to go against the community as far as I have seen
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** oh, sorry, i misread
**\<rehrar>** anyways, regarding the Monero Tracking (the immediate issue)
**\<rehrar>** I say General Fund
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** ok i got it, maybe i'm too picky on this, but i still think a final word from the community is needed. to avoid accusation of centralization
**\<rehrar>** erciccione\_[m]: the ffs is centralized, and it's pointless to pretend it's not
**\<shillo>** we need a ceo who is responsible for all decisions and can be fired
**\<rehrar>** the core team acts as arbiters, and they can set their own rules for that arbitage process
**\<rehrar>** if I don't like it, I can make the RFS (rehrar funding system) and act as an arbiter and set my own rules
**\<vp11>** I say vp11 fund so I can quit my normal job and dedicate my life to crypto. jokes, general fund should be.
**\<erciccione\_[m]>** rehrar: well, if we can decentralize it a bit, why we shouldn't?
**\<rehrar>** Monero is not centralized, but the ffs is
**\<rehrar>** it's up to the core team, not us, since it's their system
**\<rehrar>** that's what this all comes down to