Logs for the Dev Meeting held on 2017-12-27 and Logs for the Community...

Logs for the Dev Meeting held on 2017-12-27 and Logs for the Community Meetings held on 2017-12-13 & 2018-01-06
parent 4c059ae9
---
layout: post
title: Overview and Logs for the Dev Meeting Held on 2017-12-17
summary: Discussion of open PRs and issues, Bulletproofs, March HF, dedicated HW wallet, and miscellaneous
tags: [dev diaries, core, crypto]
author: dEBRUYNE / fluffypony
---
# Overview
An overview can be found on [MoneroBase](https://monerobase.com/wiki/DevMeeting_2017-12-17).
# Logs
**\<fluffypony>** 1. Greetings
**\<fluffypony>** 2. Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting
**\<fluffypony>** 3. March hardfork items + code freeze
**\<fluffypony>** 4. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A
**\<fluffypony>** 5. Any additional meeting items
**\<fluffypony>** 6. Confirm next meeting date/time
**\<fluffypony>** I think we've done 1. so we'll skip it
**\<fluffypony>** 2. Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting
**\<fluffypony>** well Bulletproofs went live on testnet
**\<fluffypony>** so there's that
**\<fluffypony>** and we merged some stuff
**\<fluffypony>** moneromooo: anything in particular you want to highlight?
**\<moneromooo>** Ah, whether to enable them for v7 or v8 on mainnet.
**\<fluffypony>** that's the next point
**\<fluffypony>** I meant anything in 2. you want to highlight :)
**\<moneromooo>** Not in particular, no.
**\<HUCK45>** Hey all, I just saw that awesome project recently and a question came to my mind- why there isn’t any option for GPU mining instead of CPU? Browsers these days allow that, by webgl for example (depending on the user settings, but on default it uses gpu)
**\<fluffypony>** HUCK45: we're in a meeting - feel free to take that to #monero
**\<rehrar>** HUCK45 we're in a dev meeting right now. :) This'll have to wait.
**\<suraeNoether>** as far as MRL is concerned: the math on bulletproofs seems tight, but the best test for cryptography is time
**\<fluffypony>** ok so I'll highlight a few PRs
**\<fluffypony>** suraeNoether: not there yet
**\<suraeNoether>** oh woops
**\<fluffypony>** #2878 tightens up --offline mode by disabling DNS lookups
**\<fluffypony>** #2877 refactors a bunch of p2p stuff
**\<fluffypony>** and then the obvious bug fixes and improvements
**\<fluffypony>** Bulletproofs on testnet is in #2883
**\<fluffypony>** which brings us to 3. March hardfork items + code freeze
**\<fluffypony>** so v7 already has sorted inputs
**\<fluffypony>** moneromooo: do you want to explain that?
**\<moneromooo>** Sorted inputs? Or bp ?
**\<moneromooo>** I assume bp. They're just a smaller sized range proof system.
**\<fluffypony>** sorted inputs
**\<fluffypony>** I assume everyone knows what BP is
**\<moneromooo>** Well, just... sort inputs by their key image. Nothing more.
**\<iDunk>** Is it like unsorted inputs, but sorted ?
**\<fluffypony>** iDunk: kinda
**\<gingeropolous>** and why sort?
**\<moneromooo>** Kinda :)
**\<fluffypony>** gingeropolous: that's the big question
**\<iDunk>** Cool :)
**\<gingeropolous>** :)
**\<fluffypony>** it's to prevent metadata leaking
**\<fluffypony>** eg. the specific wallet used for a tx
**\<moneromooo>** To avoid broken implementations leak stuff. It'd be better for outputs (ie, always put change last, etc), but unfortunately it doesn't work for outputs as the keys depend on their index.
**\<moneromooo>** It has become hairy after subaddresses unfortunately, at least for the small benefit.
**\<luigi1111w>** which?
**\<moneromooo>** What is the question ?
**\<luigi1111w>** what is "it"
**\<fluffypony>** ordering outputs
**\<moneromooo>** inputs.
**\<luigi1111w>** subaddress or multisig?
**\<moneromooo>** I'll rephrase:
**\<moneromooo>** The input sorting code has become hairy after subaddresses unfortunately, at least for the small benefit.
**\<luigi1111w>** yes that was clear, just not why
**\<luigi1111w>** well was clear after \<moneromooo> inputs.
**\<moneromooo>** Because the sorting was internal to construct\_tx before, now it's changed in the caller as well.
**\<luigi1111w>** ok
**\<moneromooo>** So that means you have to order selected\_transfers too, and possible something else, can't recall exactly.
**\<moneromooo>** Anyway, it's just minutiae particular to our wallet code.
**\<luigi1111w>** btw, change being last doesn't leak metadata
**\<moneromooo>** It doesn't leak that change is that ?
**\<moneromooo>** It doesn't leak that change is last ?
**\<luigi1111w>** right
**\<luigi1111w>** or what wallet was used
**\<moneromooo>** OK, it leaks that change is more likely to be last than otherwise.
**\<luigi1111w>** is it?
**\<luigi1111w>** what if a popular wallet puts it first
**\<moneromooo>** x+epsilon > x, even if epsilon is very small.
**\<moneromooo>** (assuming epsilon is positive)
**\<fluffypony>** luigi1111w: the onus is on wallets to follow the pattern
**\<luigi1111w>** what pattern
**\<luigi1111w>** why is there a pattern
**\<moneromooo>** I'm lost here, I'll wait.
**\<luigi1111w>** me too :)
**\<moneromooo>** Maybe ask your question again, rephrased :)
**\<pigeons>** I guess if there is an intentional pattern, there won't be several accidental identifying ones
**\<rbrunner>** Fingerprinting wallets?
**\<luigi1111w>** my point is chnage isn't a fingerprinting pattern for wallets
**\<luigi1111w>** well my new point, whatever
**\<luigi1111w>** anyway it doesn't really matter as we're not doing it anyway
**\<fluffypony>** ok let's talk about Bulletproofs then
**\<fluffypony>** suraeNoether: your turn :)
**\<suraeNoether>** whelp, i pretty much had my piece in terms of bulletproofs: there isn't a research-oriented approach to answer if they are ready for implementation.
**\<suraeNoether>** the best test for crypto is use and time.
**\<suraeNoether>** the math has been reviewed, looks tight. it may feel like it's being put into production too soon, but...
**\<suraeNoether>** any time we implement something new, we take some risks in that regard
**\<suraeNoether>** it looks to me like a no-brainer drop-in replacement for our current range proofs, and to sarang it seems fine. the coding is done.
**\<msvb-mob>** suraeNoether: Is there a way to merge new features on testnet only?
**\<msvb-mob>** Maybe a risk reduction strategy I mean?
**\<suraeNoether>** afaik BP is already on testnet as of ... today?
**\<moneromooo>** As of a week back or so.
**\<suraeNoether>** ah there you go
**\<msvb-mob>** So we have at least that granularity, okay.
**\<luigi1111w>** I'm going through the code and have some questions
**\<suraeNoether>** yeah, i mean
**\<suraeNoether>** luigi1111w: sarang will be able to answer them tomorrow afaik.
**\<rehrar>** Is the chance of finding meaningful vulnerabilities that much greater if we extend it out to September hard fork? Like, would the extra six months be an adequate amount of time if it was determined that the three months between now and March hardfork wasn't sufficient?
**\<suraeNoether>** \^ this is actually sort of the tough spot we find ourselves in
**\<suraeNoether>** thing is, there isn't a real monetary incentive to attack something like BP while its on testnet
**\<luigi1111w>** attacking it on mainnet is catastrophic, however
**\<suraeNoether>** yep
**\<suraeNoether>** its like designing a new parachute
**\<rbrunner>** Well, we could put bounties for Testnet attacks, no?
**\<luigi1111w>** meh
**\<rehrar>** It's simple. We make testnetcoin a 3B dollar project.
**\<fluffypony>** sure, but then we shouldn't ever deploy anything
**\<fluffypony>** :-P
**\<fluffypony>** LOL rehrar
**\<suraeNoether>** lol
**\<suraeNoether>** eventually someone has to strap it onto their own backs and jump
**\<suraeNoether>** is what i mean
**\<fluffypony>** yes
**\<fluffypony>** so here's my thinking
**\<luigi1111w>** the people that could review and attack are pretty small in number
**\<fluffypony>** we code freeze via a 0.12 branch in the next 2-ish weeks
**\<fluffypony>** we include BP for the March HF
**\<fluffypony>** we release test bins in Jan
**\<fluffypony>** we re-measure our confidence towards the end of Jan / beginning of Feb
**\<fluffypony>** if we're not happy with it we change it to v8
**\<fluffypony>** or the opposite - put it in v8 and move it to v7 towards the end of Jan if we're confident
**\<luigi1111w>** much more comfortable with the latter
**\<luigi1111w>** though there's plenty of support for delaying v7 as well
**\<rehrar>** I think delaying v7 by a couple months would be well worth it?
**\<rehrar>** and even if the next fork is still held to September, we will still have the multi-input BP to merge, which is exciting, no?
**\<fluffypony>** I don't think we should move fork dates
**\<rehrar>** or were both single and multi output BPs being discussed right now?
**\<moneromooo>** Single only.
**\<fluffypony>** it's becoming increasingly difficult, and sticking to the predictable fork schedule is advantageous for exchanges, merchants, and pools
**\<fluffypony>** (emergency hard forks aside)
**\<moneromooo>** I'm reasonably sure most don't know in advance when the fork is supposed to be anyway.
**\<luigi1111w>** ^^
**\<rehrar>** other loser coins: "oh btw mister exchange, we're forking in like two weeks, please update software"
**\<fluffypony>** moneromooo: they're starting to know
**\<dEBRUYNE>** As long as they are notified well in advance I don't see a problem with pushing it back 1-2 months
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Like moneromooo says, most probably don't even know we have one scheduled for march
**\<fluffypony>** pushing it back by 1-2 months isn't enough time
**\<luigi1111w>** it might be
**\<luigi1111w>** although
**\<fluffypony>** imho we're either happy with March or we need 6 additional months of testing
**\<moneromooo>** How about 12 ?
**\<rehrar>** It may be that in the future FP you might be right, but I think we're still small enough that we can pull a stunt like this without too many consequences
**\<fluffypony>** moneromooo: we might need that, if our confidence level is low
**\<moneromooo>** The confidence will stay low until 3 months before the fork, when people will start looking.
**\<moneromooo>** Before 3 months, (almost) nobody will look.
**\<suraeNoether>** if we give ourselves 6 months of testing for BPs
**\<suraeNoether>** i'll tell you what'll happen
**\<fluffypony>** lol
**\<suraeNoether>** 5 months an 2 weeks will go by
**\<fluffypony>** so then March it is?
**\<moneromooo>** Now, if people did look for 6 months... then yes.
**\<suraeNoether>** and then testing will begin
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Pushing it back 6 months might perhaps result in it going down the priority list
**\<moneromooo>** I'm ready to go for september if there is a good reason (ie, someone says they need the 6 months).
**\<dEBRUYNE>** And then we just get the same # of months of review
**\<fluffypony>** I'm happy with March, but I'm also open to having my mind changed
**\<fluffypony>** I'm also reaching out to the paper authors to see if any of them are able to do an implementation review
**\<moneromooo>** smooth thinks it's too early, for the record.
**\<rbrunner>** Main argument?
**\<moneromooo>** At 9 txes per block (monthly average now), I think BPs save ~ 2 GB per month.
**\<dEBRUYNE>** I think you'll see more transactions once fees drop to an acceptable level though
**\<dEBRUYNE>** So savings might be even more
**\<Vespco>** March with aggressive promotion of testnet usage starting now. We can highlight the need on reddit and provide clear stack exchange instructions and .bins to attract more users
**\<luigi1111w>** I don't think that helps
**\<luigi1111w>** you need math and code people
**\<luigi1111w>** we may have enough (not now, I mean within the next 3 months)
**\<rehrar>** Ok, just so the discussion doesn't go on forever, and to summarize for anyone reading logs afterwards, there's three main camps here: 1. Launch BPs in March HF, 2. Launch BP's in September HF, 3. Delay March HF to something like a May HF and launch BPs then.
**\<rehrar>** Of those three, I'd say 3 is reasonable
**\<luigi1111w>** there are two other non-forking changes that people would like to see in a release too, subaddresses and multisig
**\<luigi1111w>** former is in already
**\<dEBRUYNE>** As the fork height isn't set yet, can't we reasses in 2 months?
**\<luigi1111w>** latter "should" be (IMO) in the next release
**\<dEBRUYNE>** And see if there has been adequate review
**\<fluffypony>** luigi1111w: agreed
**\<luigi1111w>** dEBRUYNE no we are trying to get releases out in reasonable time
**\<luigi1111w>** ie, not the week before
**\<moneromooo>** MS is going in soon. Just after I fix the core tests after last rebase :)
**\<dEBRUYNE>** No I meant whether BP go in or not
**\<dEBRUYNE>** \^ luigi1111w
**\<Vespco>** Is GUI ready for multisig and subaaddresses?
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Or is two months to late for that to decide?
**\<luigi1111w>** yes
**\<dEBRUYNE>** too\*
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Ok
**\<fluffypony>** dEBRUYNE: basically-final bins need to be out by Feb
**\<fluffypony>** beginning-ish of Feb
**\<luigi1111w>** by the time you decide and build the release you're at like one week
**\<luigi1111w>** agree
**\<dEBRUYNE>** But also, if we push back the fork 1-2 months, we have more time to release basically-final bins
**\<luigi1111w>** well 2 months imo
**\<luigi1111w>** so whenever in march
**\<suraeNoether>** i think MRL's opinion is 2 1 3, to vote for a september hard fork. because if we are wrong, the cost is large. if we are correct, we save 12 G
**\<suraeNoether>** grand scheme of things
**\<luigi1111w>** in grand scheme you don't really save anything
**\<dEBRUYNE>** If we don't include BP in March 2018, I suppose we can at least fix the fees :-P
**\<luigi1111w>** since we "might as well" prune that data
**\<luigi1111w>** later
**\<suraeNoether>** luigi1111w: yeah, on a long enough time horizon
**\<vtnerd>** prune the range proofs?
**\<luigi1111w>** yes
**\<fluffypony>** if we did 2, any opinions on reducing the base fee in the March HF? we can increase it again later if we need
**\<vtnerd>** how would some future user verify inflation?
**\<luigi1111w>** vtnerd if you desire to do that for your trust model, of course you don't prune
**\<dEBRUYNE>** fluffypony: we need to tweak the penalty
**\<vtnerd>** oh so this is like the bitcoin prune old blocks option
**\<luigi1111w>** well you don't lose the hashability
**\<suraeNoether>** fluffypony: I think dEBRUYNE may have thought about fee structures more than anyone else
**\<fluffypony>** yes
**\<luigi1111w>** JollyMort[m] :)
**\<dEBRUYNE>** \^ would certainly beat me :P
**\<suraeNoether>** fair
**\<endogenic>** is it worth writing a paper on fee structure modeling etc?
**\<luigi1111w>** longer term I think yes
**\<luigi1111w>** but we certainly don't have time for march
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Perhaps we could change the penalty exponent to \^3 instead of \^2
**\<fluffypony>** suraeNoether: what would your comfort level change to if one or more of the paper's authors reviewed the implementation?
**\<suraeNoether>** fluffypony: no, the implementation isn't the concern at all, in my mind at least
**\<suraeNoether>** assuming it's passing unit tests
**\<suraeNoether>** (which i think it is, iirc)
**\<moneromooo>** It is.
**\<dEBRUYNE>** What if the paper itself is "broken"? Only time will tell that I guess
**\<suraeNoether>** there ya go. the question is whether or not someone clever can divide by zero and cause a big monero bang with bullet proofs .
**\<suraeNoether>** dEBRUYNE: \^ exactly
**\<suraeNoether>** the best test for crypto is time
**\<rehrar>** will an aggressive 'test bps on testnet' campaign do anything?
**\<luigi1111w>** no
**\<suraeNoether>** i don't think so
**\<suraeNoether>** if someone found something
**\<rehrar>** so then that's points for March HF isn't it?
**\<suraeNoether>** it would be worht more for them to wait until it was implemented than to report it
**\<rbrunner>** I think with no high-value target to attack nobody will aim at BP
**\<luigi1111w>** I disagree with suraeNoether and would like the implementation reviewed
**\<rehrar>** if we gain little value for waiting, then we shouldn't wait
**\<suraeNoether>** luigi1111w: I dind't say i dind't want the implementation reviewed. fluffypony asked me if such a review would make me more comfortable with a March HF
**\<luigi1111w>** then we still disagree
**\<luigi1111w>** so it's fine :)
**\<suraeNoether>** heh, okay. well at least we can agree that we both want the implementation reviewed one way or another
**\<moneromooo>** (thanks stoffu btw, who did review it well)
**\<suraeNoether>** stoffu is a silent hero
**\<rehrar>** Meeting is coming to a close. Not necessarily to decide right now, but just to see where everyone is, can we have everyone that was in this conversation verbally state whether they prefer March or September for BPs?
**\<fluffypony>** in terms of someone finding an issue in the math itself, I don't think that 6 months is a macro-enough timescale for that
**\<fluffypony>** my preference would be March, pending peer review, or September + fee reduction failing that
**\<rbrunner>** March: Only with BP live on mainnet you would ever get bright and bad people interested to break something
**\<suraeNoether>** i have the reversed preference as fluffypony, plus i would like the authors to review the implementation in either case
**\<suraeNoether>** i think sarang has the same preference as fluffypony though
**\<vtnerd>** uh, so before meeting adjourns I'd like to prod https://github.com/monero-project/supercop/pull/1
**\<moneromooo>** What we'd need is for people who may review it to tell is now when they would, and how much time they'd need... Not gonna happen most likely.
**\<vtnerd>** unedited supercop code is all that is now
**\<luigi1111w>** cool
**\<pigeons>** pre-borromean ringct signature issue was found by 3rd party (and/after the monero team), so people do look at non-mainnet code. and also that incident shows how short timelines are scary
**\<endogenic>** \^
**\<fluffypony>** also msvb-mob wanted to say a couple of things about the HW wallet
**\<suraeNoether>** pigeons: that's an extremely good point
**\<msvb-mob>** Hardware team achieved a breakthrough today in manipulating the MCU factory bootloader without programming.
**\<msvb-mob>** That means that future firmware developers can flash boards using DFU over USB.
**\<msvb-mob>** DFU == Device Firmware Upgrade
**\<fluffypony>** pigeons: good point
**\<fluffypony>** msvb-mob: nice one!
**\<msvb-mob>** In the near future we will ask for in depth advice from core development and MRL to confirm our design is on track.
**\<msvb-mob>** Any questions? You can ask about 34C3 assembly as well.
**\<moneromooo>** There is a factory bootloader ? As in, code you did not write ?
**\<msvb-mob>** moneromooo: Yes, most hardware manufacturers (Nordic, STM, Maxim, TI) supply a default bootloader you can't get rid of.
**\<msvb-mob>** And when they're nice, it's full of USB and DFU.
**\<luigi1111w>** pigeons thanks, and that memory pushes me towards the wait camp
**\<moneromooo>** That sounds like a great idea :/
**\<msvb-mob>** Next topic.
**\<luigi1111w>** meeting is basically over afaik
**\<rbrunner>** Please don't forget the GUI wallet Windows installer and put it into service sometime after busy Christmas. I have a PR waiting that gives the last polish to the installer script, and after that it's really, really ready
**\<fluffypony>** yep that's it
**\<fluffypony>** one last thing
**\<fluffypony>** next meeting would be Dec 31
**\<fluffypony>** but I don't think anyone wants that
**\<fluffypony>** so push out to Jan 14?
**\<rehrar>** Monero New Year party?
**\<msvb-mob>** If we do one week later, we synced again with community meetings.
**\<luigi1111w>** is that what we want?
**\<luigi1111w>** ok with both
**\<rehrar>** you guys don't go anyways :P
**\<luigi1111w>** and by ok I mean as not ok as normal
**\<fluffypony>** msvb-mob: I'd prefer us unsynced, otherwise it's just too much on a weekend
**\<fluffypony>** wife will murder me :-P
**\<moneromooo>** Technically, that's still synced, but out of phase...
**\* moneromooo** steps back
**\<msvb-mob>** Nobody is protesting 14 Jan. I'm not opinionated, just wanted to mention the sync aspect.
**\<fluffypony>** lol moneromooo
**\<rehrar>** Ok 14 Jan it is
\ No newline at end of file
---
layout: post
title: Logs for the Community Meeting Held on 2017-12-23
summary: Community highlights, Forum Funding System updates, RFC-HWALLET-1, Malware Response Workgroup, Forum Funding System donor flairs, and miscellaneous
tags: [community, crypto]
author: dEBRUYNE / fluffypony
---
# Logs
**\<sgp>** 0. Introduction
**\<sgp>** We would like to welcome everyone to this Monero Community Meeting!
**\<sgp>** Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/148
**\<sgp>** Monero Community meetings are a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community. We use meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support.
**\<sgp>** 1. Greetings
**\<rehrar>** Ye
**\<ErCiccione>** hi ya
**\<rehrar>** Perfect. Let's continue.
**\<sgp>** 2. Community highlights
**\<sgp>** For a great weekly summary, please read the Monero Observer: http://monero-observer.com/
**\<sgp>** 3. FFS updates
**\<sgp>** There are several FFS updates.
**\<sgp>** a. RFC-HWALLET-1 project progress
**\<sgp>** @msvb-lab @msvb-mob any updates?
**\<ErCiccione>** i have some from the localization group
**\<sgp>** Ok great, let's get to that in one sec
**\<sgp>** Ok, well we can cover these if anyone from the hardware wallet team is present
**\<sgp>** Their Taiga page is here: https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/michael-rfc-hwallet-1-implementation/
**\<sgp>** b. localization
**\<sgp>** Go ahead, ErCiccione
**\<ErCiccione>** ok, thanks sgp
**\<ErCiccione>** Nothing special btw, we are almost completely set with the structure of the localization workgroup. rehrar made a pr for making the website multilingual and we are getting ready for that, since it's gonna be my main concern for at least the next month
**\<ErCiccione>** we now have guides for translating: GUI wallet, meetup kit, kovri, the future website (still wip) and soon a graphic tutorial for Git. And i'm really looking forward to that
**\<sgp>** Anything else you would like to add?
**\<ErCiccione>** we got many translations for the meetup kit and i'm happy to say we have almost completely filled the page containing the translations of the gui :)
**\<ErCiccione>** just contacts:
**\<ErCiccione>** any update can be found on our taiga project: https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/erciccione-monero-localization/ and #monero-translations is our support channel
**\<ErCiccione>** if anybody have any question, i'm happy to answer
**\<ErCiccione>** that's it from me
**\<sgp>** Suppose I wanted to add language 'x'. How much time would it typically take one person to translate the website, and how much time for the GUI?
**\<sgp>** I know it's a broad question; I'm just looking for very rough numbers
**\<ErCiccione>** ading a language for the GUI is quite straightforward but depends how much a contributor knows about git. If he/she has a good knowledge, usually can be ready to get merged within the same day (of course, reviews aside). But usually a PR is ready in a couple of days, if the contributor needs support
**\<ErCiccione>** about the website
**\<ErCiccione>** i tested it and looks like quite easy, the main "issue" is that there are a lot of pages to translate, so i'm working on a workflow that will give priority to the most important pages
**\<sgp>** Thanks
**\<sgp>** Does anyone else have a FFS update?
**\<ErCiccione>** that also shouldn't take long, i usually review and test the same day or the one after
**\<sgp>** 4. Malware Response Workgroup
**\<sgp>** I have taken on the initiative of organizing the Malware Response Workgroup. If you are interested, please go to #monero-malware-respon
**\<sgp>** I have updated the Taiga wiki project with several help guides for web mining, system mining, and ransomware https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/sgp-monero-malware-response-workgroup/wiki/home
**\<sgp>** These are still drafts, but it shows the general idea
**\<sgp>** The goals of this project are to help those with compromised machines and to show others that many Monero community members discourage and help limit malware.
**\<sgp>** We can use volunteers now to help review these documents, and later to help people
**\<sgp>** Any questions?
**\<ErCiccione>** looks quite today. (pinging: @serhack @needmoney90 dEBRUYNE gingeropulous)
**\<ErCiccione>** (@pablonero mattcode xmrscott)
**\<sgp>** It's close to a major holiday
**\<sgp>** Well, that's all for the formal part of the meeting
**\<sgp>** 5. Open ideas time
**\<sgp>** It’s open ideas time! Feel free to propose your ideas to this discussion group, and feel free to comment on others’ ideas. If you disagree with the idea, please reply with constructive criticism. Thank you!
**\<ErCiccione>** i do have one
**\<netg>** u need to really build and develope the site with real users and their feedback
**\<netg>** very important
**\<netg>** we cant think like a non technical person who is infected
**\<netg>** and what would help him
**\<sgp>** @netg let's have erciccione go first, then we can discuss the website further
**\<netg>** ok sorry
**\<sgp>** no worries!
**\<ErCiccione>** ok
**\<ErCiccione>** basically i had an idea to increase the level of involvement of the community about participating in ffs funding, this using reddit's flairs (rehrar told him he and dEBRUYNE were thinking about something similar)
**\<ErCiccione>** basically more FFS's you contribute to, higher is the "rank" of the flair. This is the system of ranking i had in mind:
**\<ErCiccione>** 1 : Rookie Supporter
**\<ErCiccione>** 2-3 : Supporter
**\<ErCiccione>** 4-5-6 : Coach
**\<ErCiccione>** 7-8-9 : Barolo Provider
**\<ErCiccione>** 10+ : Maecenas (or Patron?)
**\<ErCiccione>** The point here is that the amount donated doesn't matter, to get the best shiny flair the user is pushed to donate to many FFS, but according to his/her possibilities.
**\<sgp>** I like this idea
**\<sgp>** @ErCiccione there you have it, 100% community approval :p
**\<rehrar>** Ye
**\<sgp>** It may be a little difficult to implement though since you will need to have some way for people to say they donated and verify that
**\<ErCiccione>** I never playied with reddit's flairs, i'd like to try to implement this myself if you guys agree. lol thanks community!
**\<sgp>** tx IDs would probably be enough for something small like this
**\<rehrar>** 1. Little tiny baby supporter 2. Toddler support 3. We note that you can be a beautiful being one day here 4. Puberty supporter 5. Young and strong (but not for long) supporter etc.
**\<ErCiccione>** Yes, i guess it would. or we can enforce the use of the same nick you use on reddit for the forum, if you want the flair
**\<rehrar>** Spreadsheet would be necessary.
**\<sgp>** Yeah, just make something cool/cute and go with it
**\<sgp>** Donate $1m to a single project -> "itsy bitsy supporter" :D
**\<sgp>** Anything else you want to discuss about this idea?
**\<ErCiccione>** lol, no should be enough.
**\<sgp>** Ok @netg
**\<sgp>** I think everyone agrees Monero should be more accessible
**\<netg>** i dont know
**\<netg>** kali linux or tor project
**\<netg>** they lead their space 100% but they arent to super accessible
**\<netg>** for me it would be ok if monereo just alive and healthy
**\<rehrar>** Netg you talking about official website?
**\<netg>** dont need to be mainstream coin , who has to offer to m mainstream
**\<netg>** no, now about the project
**\<netg>** i mean its the same question
**\<netg>** if u go for the general public and usage of monero by non technical people
**\<netg>** you have to do alot of work in your malware group
**\<netg>** and before that in educating potential users and the community
**\<netg>** its a question where the project is gonna heading to
**\<sgp>** Have you looked at the meetup kit materials? Do you think those are good material for new users?
**\<netg>** mainstream usage or usage by a educated, sophisticated crowd
**\<sgp>** I think both
**\<rehrar>** Monero has to be for everyone. There is no other option.
**\<sgp>** Different wallets can tailor expereinces to different target audiences
**\<rehrar>** Otherwise it simply becomes another tool for the rich, who historically are the educated.
**\<sgp>** Or only a tool for the malicious :(
**\<rehrar>** Who historically has been everybody. :P
**\<sgp>** \@netg does that answer your question?
**\<netg>** i mean, great approach from idealistic kind of view
**\<rehrar>** Yes, netg, I agree a dichotomy exists between the sophisticated user and the non-technical, normal person. This will denote two different kinds of education, as you have alluded to.
**\<netg>** it will be ALOT of work
**\<rehrar>** I agree. It will be a lot of work. And it is work well invested in my opinion. And should nobody else want to do this work, I will. :)
**\<rehrar>** But there are more. ;) No worries.
**\<rehrar>** Bitcoin started out as something quite idealistic too.
**\<netg>** yeah fuck , i mean monero historically always choosed the best approach and design
**\<netg>** even if it was alot of work
**\<netg>** maybe we should stay in that tradition
**\<rehrar>** I see Monero as carrying on the touch Bitcoin dropped.
**\<ErCiccione>** i agree it will worth it, even just for the public image of Monero
**\<netg>** rehrar: obvious, thats the reason why alot of old school bitcoin supporters switched to monero , instantly after reading about it
**\<sgp>** Any other questions?
**\<netg>** When will Monero been moon? :)
**\<netg>** \-en
**\<rehrar>** Yesterday
**\<sgp>** Hasn't it already? :)
**\<rehrar>** You missed it. Sorry. :(
**\<netg>** "cant tell you, the moons privacy needs to be respected"
**\<sgp>** 6. Confirm next meeting date/time
**\<sgp>** The next Monero Coffee Chat will be two weeks from today on 6 January. We need to decide when to have the next meeting. I suggest moving the next meeting to 13 January and then continuing biweekly from there to avoid another conflict in February.
**\<rehrar>** Devs want to keep dev and community meetings on different weeks.
**\<sgp>** Hmm, not sure what to do then
**\<rehrar>** What conflict is in [email protected]
**\<ErCiccione>** the week after or on a different day of the week
**\<sgp>** If we stay with the current meeting schedule it will fall on the first Saturday of the month
**\<sgp>** I suppose I could delay the Coffee Chat instead
**\<rehrar>** Skip that one.
**\<rehrar>** Or do that.
**\<ErCiccione>** maybe delay it not skip
**\<sgp>** Ok, let's plan for the next meeting to be two weeks from today on 6 January at 17:00 UTC
**\<ErCiccione>** agreed
**\<sgp>** 7. Conclusion
**\<sgp>** That’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, and we hope to see you on /r/MoneroCommunity and #monero-community. Take care, and know that change starts with YOU.
\ No newline at end of file
---
layout: post
title: Logs for the Community Meeting Held on 2018-01-06
summary: Community highlights, Forum Funding System updates, RFC-HWALLET-1, Rehrar's Kovri proposal, Serhack's integrations, Fondajo, community materials, and miscellaneous
tags: [community, crypto]
author: dEBRUYNE / fluffypony
---
# Logs
**\<sgp>** 0. Introduction
**\<sgp>** We would like to welcome everyone to this Monero Community Meeting!
**\<sgp>** Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/155
**\<sgp>** Monero Community meetings are a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community. We use meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support.
**\<sgp>** 1. Greetings
**\<rehrar>** oy
**\<ErCiccione>** Hi folks
**\<ordtrogen>** yo
**\<xmrscott[m]>** Salutations
**\<Xil3>** hello
**\<sarang>** yo
**\<msvb-lab>** Oops, I was on the wrong channel. Hi folks.
**\<sgp>** 2. Community highlights
**\<sgp>** For a great weekly summary, please read the Monero Observer: http://monero-observer.com/
**\<sgp>** 3. FFS updates
**\<sgp>** There are several FFS updates.
**\<sgp>** a. RFC-HWALLET-1 project progress
**\<sgp>** @msvb-lab, your turn 😅
**\<ArticMine>** Hi
**\<msvb-lab>** Cool.
**\<msvb-lab>** The Monero Hardware had a nice meeting yesterday of our own.
**\<msvb-lab>** We chatted on #monero-hardware for about an hour on seventeen topics.
**\<msvb-lab>** Highlights of the past couple weeks are:
**\<msvb-lab>** Our hardware wallet GitHub repository 'sekura' will be renamed to 'kastelo'.
**\<msvb-lab>** That's with a 'elo' not 'kastratelo'.
**\<msvb-lab>** ;)
**\<msvb-lab>** We delivered about thirty (?) holiday divident prototype boards.
**\<msvb-lab>** Via post and face to face meetings, like for example at 34C3 in Leipzig.
**\<msvb-lab>** ...and are working on the next prototype(s) design now.
**\<msvb-lab>** That's about all, any questions?
**\<msvb-lab>** A firmware effort is underway, I guess we'll have a more unique device than planned.
**\<msvb-lab>** There is a lot of interest in the group to attract more people that know cryptography and can code.
**\<msvb-lab>** Volunteers?
**\<msvb-lab>** Crickets.
**\<rehrar>** I can neither code, nor know cryptography well
**\<msvb-lab>** sgp: Next topic.
**\<sarang>** MRL remains available with any questions that come up
**\<rehrar>** but I'll jump right on it
**\<msvb-lab>** sarang: That's excellent, very generous as usual of MRL.
**\<sgp>** Thanks msvb-lab
**\<sgp>** b. Monero Integrations
**\<sgp>** Serhack and cryptochangements posted an update: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/7o3rx6/serhack_updates_for_the_ebook_and_integrations/
**\<sgp>** Do any of them want to speak about this now?
**\<cryptochangements>** oh crap im late
**\<cryptochangements>** is serhack here?
**\<rehrar>** doesn't seem so. It's all you cryptochangements
**\<sgp>** I haven't seen him here today
**\<sgp>** Is there anything you want to mention cryptochangements?
**\<cryptochangements>** ok, pretty much all I have to say is that the opencart plugin, the third milestone, is being worked on and is on it's way
**\<sgp>** Great, thanks for your work
**\<cryptochangements>** you can see the code here: https://github.com/monero-integrations/monerocart
**\<sgp>** Anything else cryptochangements?
**\<cryptochangements>** nope, that's all
**\<sgp>** c. Rehrar’s Kovri proposal
**\<sgp>** Rehrar’s Kovri proposal has moved to funding required: https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required/89677/rehrar-s-2018-q1-kovri-proposal
**\<sgp>** Anything to add rehrar?
**\<rehrar>** fudn it
**\<rehrar>** \*fund
**\<rehrar>** *bows* thank you
**\<rehrar>** jk, thing is, I'm working on Kovri regardless, so work is not slowing in any capacity
**\<rehrar>** even while this waits for funding
**\<sgp>** Thanks rehrar. It means a lot for the project
**\<sgp>** Does anyone else have a FFS update?
**\<ErCiccione>** nothing from me but if anybody has question, here to answer about localizations
**\<sgp>** I'll proceed then onto the next topic
**\<ordtrogen>** I have a comment on localization, when topic's up
**\<ordtrogen>** *the topic*
**\<sgp>** @ordtrogen you can ask it now
**\<ErCiccione>** sure, go ahead ordtrogen
**\<ordtrogen>** (pasting some pre-written text ...)
**\<ordtrogen>** I've only recently gotten more involved in translation/localization but pretty quickly I have discovered a couple of issues with the localizable strings, both in the CLI and GUI project. So I think it needs some polishing to look proper. (I am filing issues as we speak) There also doesn't seem to exist much in the way of help documentation. I know there is some texts on getmonero.org, but I'd argue there should fir
comes with the installation, such as a man file for unix and maybe some other formats for Mac and Windows. Which makes me think we should spend a little more time on the "foundations" of the texts we write. Like improving the UI English. While @ercicciones work on the localization project obviously is fantastic, I'm thinking, what quality can the translations have unless the source (en) is correct?
**\<rehrar>** Agree wholeheartedly.
**\<rehrar>** As I work on the website here and there, most of the text is not written by me, except for the newer pages (and even that should be reviewed). Some of the copy does not read well, or is over flowery in some places, or other issues.
**\<ErCiccione>** yes, a lot of good points. the source file has been polished not a month ago, but would be great to have a clean and reviewed text to work on
**\<sgp>** I think most people agree documentation needs to be improved across the board
**\<ErCiccione>** about documentation
**\<ordtrogen>** I'm thinking a man file for monerod would be in order. Need not be too extensive
**\<ordtrogen>** (linux)
**\<ordtrogen>** And I'm not sure, what is displayed by $monerod --help is not localizable, right?
**\<ErCiccione>** i'm working in creating a wiki with everything necessary for a translator, it can be found here https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/erciccione-monero-localization/wiki/home it need some improving, but following translators can take days some times, and i actually have no time, would be great to have some help on that side
**\<ErCiccione>** @ordtrogen it is actually, you can find the references to the code in the .ts files
**\<ordtrogen>** ok. I just wanted to bring up the issue. As soon as I have to write something, I will.
**\<ErCiccione>** iirc a man file was partially done few days ago, but yes, there
**\<ordtrogen>** Will try to finish the testing and issue reporting first
**\<ErCiccione>** \* there is needing of a lot of clean documentation, thank you for bringing that up
**\<ordtrogen>** Oh, a man file is somewhere in the repos?
**\<ordtrogen>** CLI or GUI`?
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Just dropping this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/7nl38w/technical_documentation_for_monero/ds2nkfu/
**\<ordtrogen>** Oh, great
**\<ordtrogen>** I don't have time to follow r/monero too much
**\<ErCiccione>** dEBRUYNE, uh that looks very good
**\<sgp>** Anything else we need to discuss on this topic?
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Perhaps reach out to the owner to collaborate
**\<ordtrogen>** Oh, man, That site looks great!
**\<sgp>** Ok, I'm going to move on. Thanks @dEBRUYNE @ErCiccione
**\<sgp>** 4. Fondajo
**\<sgp>** After months of progress, I am pleased to announce that I am proceeding with a 501(c)3 nonprofit cryptocurrency foundation called “Fondajo”. I have a great workgroup of people who are helping organize all the documents.
**\<sgp>** This cryptocurrency nonprofit will promote education, research, and development. One of its values will be to promote privacy projects. The foundation will still be completely separate from Monero.
**\<sgp>** When the nonprofit is officially incorporated, I will hand over the responsibilities of this workgroup to rehrar. I’m sure that we can use some help from other members who have been active these past several months.
**\<sgp>** To be clear, this is not a Monero-specific foundation, but it will support many of Monero'
**\<sgp>** \*many of Monero's projects
**\<ArticMine>** This is a US base non profit?
**\<sgp>** Yes, US-based
**\<sgp>** Which will allow people in the US to make tax-deductible donations
**\<ordtrogen>** TAlk about the name Fondajo
**\<ordtrogen>** (now I see the meaning in espreanto)
**\<sgp>** If you are interested in helping with the nonprofit, let me know in PM
**\<sarang>** What are the practical types of projects/goals related to the mission?
**\<sarang>** or some examples?
**\<sgp>** Any published research in cryptocurrencies is fair game
**\<sgp>** Educational outreach is prioritized for grants too
**\<sgp>** I'm still seeing what can be done for development, but I'd like to support this as much as possible
**\<sarang>** Nice, so it'd issue grants from its asset pool of donations?
**\<sgp>** Exactly
**\<sarang>** Excellent
**\<dEBRUYNE>** As long as it doesn't end up like the Bitcoin foundation lol
**\<sarang>** I assume the nonprofit status might make it easier to help support students as well
**\<sgp>** It will be very different from the Bitcoin Foundation, even by registration
**\<sgp>** Bitcoin Foundation is not a 501(c)3
**\<dEBRUYNE>** I am just talking about their endeavors etc.
**\<sgp>** Since this is a 501(c)3, the focus will be entirely on education, research, and (hopefully) development
**\<cwcopz>** "Fondajo" sounds like an intersting project. Is there more information available? Is there a official homepage?
**\<sgp>** I think it will really help raise money for projects that can benefit Monero and other privacy projects
**\<sarang>** I know suraeNoether has toyed around with the idea of a nonprofit too, so I'll page him here
**\<rehrar>** Privacy advocacy!
**\<sgp>** cwcopz I have the domain but haven't made a website yet
**\<rehrar>** Monero is just one tool in the opsec of a privacy focused person
**\<cwcopz>** Is there a way to stay up to date? I would like to donate to this project as well.
**\<sgp>** Any other questions?
**\<sgp>** I want to assure everyone that Fondajo will remain completely separate from Monero itself
**\<ordtrogen>** Did you get the .co domain?
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Is anyone getting paid?
**\<sgp>** @cwcopz I'll put all major updates in /r/Monero and /r/MoneroCommunity
**\<cwcopz>** Okay, thanks. Sounds promising!
**\<sgp>** @dEBRUYNE it's likely there will be overhead for some positions, but I want to keep it minimal
**\<dEBRUYNE>** I am personally not a fan of people getting paid in a nonprofit, it should be done altruistically
**\<sarang>** I think it depends on the level of work. If it's your full-time job, you should get compensated
**\<sarang>** peeps gotta eat
**\<sgp>** @dEBRUYNE it's sometimes better to be able to pay people to allow them to spend all their time working on improving the cryptocurrency ecosystem
**\<rehrar>** what if they are paid in love?
**\<sarang>** Will my landlord accept love as rent?
**\<sarang>** That might be illegal
**\<rehrar>** well, as in crypto, consensus is mandatory
**\<rehrar>** moving on :P
**\<ordtrogen>** Can't an organization be non-profit as a whole but still pay for services?
**\<sgp>** Ok sarang, you're up
**\<sarang>** 501(c)(3) orgs can pay their staff
**\<sarang>** I thought I'd mention one FFS that's sorta kinda community related
**\<sarang>** It was suggested that we send a couple of folks to some academic conferences for knowledge gains and community representation
**\<sarang>** suraeNoether and I wish to attend the BPASE18 conference at Stanford later this month
**\<sarang>** and suraeNoether plans to attend the RWC conference in Zurich with fluffypony
**\<sarang>** So we have an open FFS for the usual expenses
**\<rehrar>** 5 star hotel, caviar every night, the works
**\<sarang>** I'm mainly looking for input from the group about how important y'all feel conferences are for the Monero group
**\<sarang>** and if FFS should be the preferred way of sending folks to conferences that we agree are worthwhile
**\<dEBRUYNE>** sgp, sarang: Let's discuss that another time :P
**\<dEBRUYNE>** sarang: conferences are one of the main ways to network
**\<sarang>** OK, wasn't sure if this was a good place for that discussion
**\<dEBRUYNE>** As long as they aren't detrimental for day-to-day work
**\<dEBRUYNE>** i.e. it leaves no time to work on "normal" stuff
**\<rehrar>** To answer the first question: extremely important
**\<rehrar>** The Monero Project needs to be a part of a larger conversation
**\<sarang>** dEBRUYNE: the conference schedules are usually pretty packed, but BPASE is only 3 days
**\<rehrar>** a conversation about privacy, human rights, cryptography, and more
**\<rehrar>** going to these conferences is a way for representatives of The Monero Project to be a part of that conversation
**\<rehrar>** I think The Monero Project has a unique voice, and unique things to add to such conversations as well, and our perspective will be helpful
**\<ErCiccione>** sarang: link of the FFS?
**\<sarang>** OK thanks for this perspective
**\<rehrar>** https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required/89695/funding-for-noether-brothers-to-attend-stanford-bpase18-conference
**\<sarang>** We used a single FFS but listed the separate costs for reference: https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required/89695/funding-for-noether-brothers-to-attend-stanford-bpase18-conference
**\<ErCiccione>** uw... double, nice. Thanks guys
**\<sarang>** I agree with rehrar that this should be part of a larger discussion about our involvement in the broader academic community
**\<sarang>** I recommend interested persons take a look at the conference schedules and programs. Lots of excellent talks
**\<sgp>** Anything else sarang? I have no issue with this FFS proposal
**\<sarang>** Nope, just wanted to open the broader conversation
**\<sarang>** Appreciate the insights from all of you
**\<sgp>** 5. Community materials
**\<sgp>** This section of the meeting was inspired by this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/7obquf/wake_up_we_need_better_marketing_and_better/
**\<sgp>** Let’s discuss how the Monero community can better market itself to others and what materials could be beneficial to newcomers.
**\<sgp>** Anyone want to begin?
**\<cryptochangements>** yesterday i saw a youtube ad for Bitcoin. I think we need one for monero with fluffypony in a lambo
**\<cryptochangements>** \s
**\<ordtrogen>** I keep seeing them for Dash!!!
**\<ordtrogen>** yuck
**\<Guest93332>** I want to know why is this community not communicated more on the official channels? i only heard about it as an comment on an reddit thread? This here should be more public.
**\<sarang>** I find it interesting to watch the top coins by cap... so many that seem to rely on marketing
**\<Guest93332>** \*this community chat not ..
**\<sgp>** @guest93332 this is a workgroup. You can see what it does in /r/MoneroCommunity
**\<rehrar>** It's on the Hangouts page and the Footer of the website also