Midipoet oslo freedom forum ccs proposal.md

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We did not get the same invite this year - but were provided with free tickets to attend and a warm invite from Alex Gladstein (the Chief Strategy Officer).

Let me get this straight, you will not be part of the event's lineup, you will not give a formal talk this year, but you did get a free ticket and a "warm invite" by Alex Gladstein? It seems to me that you are simply coming to XMR's community seeking funds to cover flight, lodging and food costs. Pardon my brevity here, but I am failing to see how a single individual that gave a talk during the event back in 2019 but will not do so in 2022, will cause any substantial impact to bolster Monero's ethos, on a predominantly Bitcoin maximalist attendance and speakers' list.

Edit: Addendum.

I also propose writing a report and partaking in an Exit Strategy podcast. My time for this would be approximately 6 hours at €50 p/h (sub-total €300).

Looks like you are not willing to volunteer your post-mortem, miscellaneous, outreach activities and instead want "us" to pay for your time spent doing that as well.

I also include printing costs for 200 flyer/info sheets (€100), similar to the ones we did for Oslo Freedom Forum 2019.

You will potentially distribute 200 flyers. I am not so sure that offers any effective pull for Bitcoin maximalists, respectfully.

It seems to me that you are simply coming to XMR's community seeking funds to cover flight, lodging and food costs.

This is exactly what i am requesting, yes.

Pardon my brevity here, but I am failing to see how a single individual that gave a talk during the event back in 2019 but will not do so in 2022, will cause any substantial impact to bolster Monero's ethos, on a predominantly Bitcoin maximalist attendance and speakers' list.

We actually did a whole fringe event in 2019, including a talk, coffee, pastries, distributed Monero, etc. This was at the invite of the Human Rights Foundation.

Funnily enough, i think the work we did there had a fairly large impact on proceedings. For instance, we were able to raise important points at the talks, engage with speakers, talk with Alex himself, talk to crucial contacts from the likes of Trezor, Lightning Labs, Open Money initiative, etc - trying to impose a perspective on the importance of privacy and the potential negative impacts on Human Rights for a BTC maxi ethos.

Is this worth something to the community?

Did it change anything? Perhaps not.

Will it change anything by going this time? Perhaps not.

Is it worth going? Perhaps not.

Looks like you are not willing to volunteer your post-mortem, miscellaneous, outreach activities and instead want "us" to pay for your time spent doing that as well.

I am volunteering all time at the event (and also taking holiday days from my actual job for the pleasure). So there is a direct cost to me for doing this, that i am donating to the community.

Respectfully, the time it will take to write the report, prepare for the podcast (including notes and research), and to give the actual interview will probably be more than 6 hours.

You will potentially distribute 200 flyers. I am not so sure that offers any effective pull for Bitcoin maximalists, respectfully.

Most of the participants at the event are not BTC maxis. They are Human Rights advocates.

The issue is that they are being spoon fed the BTC narrative unopposed, by the HRF.

In theory, you could argue that distributing 200 flyers could influence one human rights activist (especially if coupled with a face to face conversation to explain the dangers/impacts/potential consequences of a BTC future). This advocate could then in turn end up using/promoting/being convinced of Monero, which in turn could end up saving his/her life.

Respectfully, would the outlay from the community be worth it then?

edit: as a side note, i am not sure if you have noticed (as you haven't been around that long), but Monero used to be invited to a host of blockchain events to speak. Myself and other members of the community would regularly attend events all around the world, promoting both Monero ideology and technology.

We have come out of covid, and this is not happening at all anymore.

We are only doing our own events, and even interest in those is not as strong as it used to be. We are talking in our own echo chamber about what we think is important, but nobody is listening.

There is huge value in attending these sorts of events to conduct important outreach - a voice to remind people the original goal of cryptocurrency and what we were actually here for.

Look at Monero now, we dont have a working outreach working group (at least it seems disfunctional), we aren't getting invited to speak at events, we aren't promoting Monero outside of our own networks. Why?

Because the €1700 euro cost to send a long time member of the community to an important event - that is DIRECTLY concerned with financial freedom and the importance of cryptocurrency is deemed to not be of enough value? We might as well just let the BTC maxis spread their propaganda completely unopposed.

Do you think that is better use of our time and effort?

We talk of wanting people to get involved, to be more enthused, for researchers to partake in important research work - but then when someone that has spent days if not weeks or months writing for Monero, working on events, speaking at conference, researching in academia directly for Monero (mostly without any request for payment) puts out a call, they get shut down because €50 p/hour is deemed what? too expensive? not worth it? not good enough outreach?

Respectfully, the time it will take to write the report, prepare for the podcast (including notes and research), and to give the actual interview will probably be more than 6 hours.

Excellent. Should this CCS proposal get moved to funding required stage and fully funded, which is likely — considering how small it is, cost-wise —, the community would be flying you out to Oslo, so you can use the free ticket you got to get in. Why not also volunteer the time spent to post your post-mortem reflections as well? As a way of being transparent with such a genuine, successful, altruistic endeavor of yours.

In theory, you could argue that distributing 200 flyers could influence one human rights activist (especially if coupled with a face to face conversation to explain the dangers/impacts/potential consequences of a BTC future). This advocate could then in turn end up using/promoting/being convinced of Monero, which in turn could end up saving his/her life.

I am afraid that is your theory, not mine. 200 flyers with some out-of-band chitchat sessions in a conference is not a substantial outreach move; but that is my opinion, you are free to have your own. It simply reads as if someone is asking for a little break in Norway, nothing else.

Sub-quote 1:

We are only doing our own events, and even interest in those is not as strong as it used to be. We are talking in our own echo chamber about what we think is important, but nobody is listening.

Sub-quote 2:

Because the €1700 euro cost to send a long time member of the community to an important event - that is DIRECTLY concerned with financial freedom and the importance of cryptocurrency is deemed to not be of enough value? We might as well just let the BTC maxis spread their propaganda completely unopposed.

I personally believe we should let them live happily in their own bubble while we build our own rails elsewhere. Focus on the things that matter: our infrastructure, our communities, our events, our research papers, our development; not try to look "desperate" for awareness and clout, in spite of how "right" we might be.

i am not sure if you have noticed (as you haven't been around that long), but Monero used to be invited to a host of blockchain events to speak. Myself and other members of the community would regularly attend events all around the world, promoting both Monero ideology and technology.

Have you ever heard of this thing called strawman argument by chance? Totally irrelevant how long I "have been around for", much less what you or others have done in the past; nothing to do with my counterargument(s). :)

We talk of wanting people to get involved, to be more enthused, for researchers to partake in important research work - but then when someone that has spent days if not weeks or months writing for Monero, working on events, speaking at conference, researching in academia directly for Monero (mostly without any request for payment) puts out a call, they get shut down because €50 p/hour is deemed what? too expensive? not worth it? not good enough outreach?

My issue here is not only your €50 p/hr. rate. I am sorry if you fail to notice that.

the community would be flying you out to Oslo, so you can use the free ticket you got to get in. Why not also volunteer the time spent to post your post-mortem reflections as well?

of course the community would be flying me. who else?

so the whole thing is more appetising for you, if i donate my time at the event and the work post-event?

I am afraid that is your theory, not mine.

Yes - but it's as equally as valid as your theory of it having no impact whatsoever. Its a potential €1700 outlay for the community. The impact should be worth €1700. for that cost, we will get - networking at a financial freedom event, a report on the event, and a podcast about the event and what happened.

It simply reads as if someone is asking for a little break in Norway, nothing else.

Hang on - you say i am asking for a holiday, yet then also ask me to donate my time and effort post event? which is it? a holiday or an outreach opportunity?

I personally believe we should let them live happily in their own bubble while we build our own rails elsewhere. Focus on the things that matter: our infrastructure, our communities, our events, our research papers, our development; not try to look "desperate" for awareness and clout, in spite of how "right" we might be.

And where has this got us exactly (not to mention the fact that sending 1 representative to an influential human rights event, is hardly "desperate").

Totally irrelevant how long I "have been around for",

No, it is completely relevant - as you weren't around when CCS (previously the FFS) were used directly to fund travel and expenses to events such as these.

much less what you or others have done in the past

This is completely incorrect.

Monero has, and probably always will be, based at least in part on reputation of contributors.

Past actions influence directly how much the community should or should not trust any member to do as they say they will do. It is not a perfect system, but it is a system.

What i have done for Monero in the past (the vast majority of which i have done on my own initiative) should impact on what the community believe my time, effort, and inclination is for the future.

If we can't earn trust, respect, and reputation with our peers, then what can we earn exactly?

Talking to you is pointless, midi. You always keep beating the bush around and talking in circles over and over again. I am done. Do as you see fit.

Let it be known, I do not support this proposal as it stands; I will not contribute a single piconero should it be moved to funding required stage.

Be well.

fair enough. thanks again for the valuable contribution to the discussion.

Dear MidiHoliday,

How are you? I hope you are doing great.

I quote:

we were able to raise important points at the talks, engage with speakers, talk with Alex himself, talk to crucial contacts from the likes of Trezor, Lightning Labs, Open Money initiative, etc - trying to impose a perspective on the importance of privacy and the potential negative impacts on Human Rights for a BTC maxi ethos.

I'm glad that networking ended up in a "warm invite". If you put a bunch of retarded kids in a room there is definetly going to be a lot of hugging.

Also:

Is this worth something to the community? Did it change anything? Perhaps not. Will it change anything by going this time? Perhaps not. Is it worth going? Perhaps not.

You got it, amigo.

If this CCS gets merged, I will feel so sorry you have to take days off from work to visit a human-rights Ted talk in Oslo, and I trully hope having all travel, accomodation and food expenses covered makes it up to you. By the way, if you have some xmr left from your €50 hourly rate, please bring me a nordic troll souvenir.

Yours faithfully,

N.M.

By the way, if you have some xmr left from your €50 hourly rate, please bring me a nordic troll souvenir

I see you think i am not worth the rate. Can i respectfully ask what rate you think is fair then?

I am of the opinion that every single piconero that goes into P.R. and marketing instead of into development is a piconero thrown in the garbage.

Regarding your rate, in this case it should cost the community zero, and every other expense on your own time and dime too. It's 2022, shill attempts are a big NO.

I do not support this proposal.

I am of the opinion that every single piconero that goes into P.R. and marketing instead of into development

why is it an either, or? Do you think that all the Monero events are a waste of time, effort and money then as well? in fact anything that is not strictly dev work is wasted, even if the XMR is spent making the network stronger? the network is a sum of the people, the ecosystem, and the protocol, in my opinion.

Regarding your rate, in this case it should cost the community zero, and every other expense on your own time and dime too. It's 2022, shill attempts are a big NO.

Fair enough, i guess this is your view. There is only so long a community can last on voluntarianism alone though, imo - which, incidentally, is one of the main reasons the CCS was created in the first place. Not to mention that i have contributed time and effort in the past, and will continue to do so in the future on my "own dime".

Hi there.

Putting a dollar value on something as ambiguous as networking and representation is very hard and I know it's very easy to come to the conclusion we are paying midi to go on vacation. I bet a ton of people would love to get a sponsored trip to Oslo, at least I would.

Now. Seeing how billions are spent every year to get people to some place to represent some organization, I highly doubt there is zero value in all of this. Networking is a fulltime job for many people out there.

We have established networking has at least some value, what now? We look at who shoud represent us. Well, midipoet was charming enough last time around to get a free ticket, can any one of us say the same about themselves? There also aren't that many people as involved in Monero as much and as long as them.

Midi is not asking to be paid for the time they will spend at the event, just for writing a report and doing research for a podcast, which is a very reasonable request.

As Midi said, we have funded similar proposals before, what makes this one that different?

We also shouldn't forget that midi is taking holidays specifically to attend this event for us. While handing out flyers at a Human Rights Foundation event on financial freedom all day is definitely cool, I am not sure how many of us would be willing to spend valuable vacation days for the privilege.

Im supporting this proposal because:

midipoet is generously donating their freetime to represent Monero
midipoet is one of the most qualified representatives we could send out
This got 3000$ kek

As Midi said, we have funded similar proposals before, what makes this one that different?

We have actually done this quite a few times before. Below is one example.

https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/noethers-stanford-blockchain-conference-2019.html

and the previous year, which was one US and one European conference.

https://forum.getmonero.org/22/completed-tasks/89695/funding-for-noether-brothers-to-attend-stanford-bpase18-conference

For reference, this is the quote from the MRL members on why they think this is important:

"It's good to have Monero represented in technical and academic circles, and in-person conferences remain one of the best ways for researchers to communicate effectively."

As a side, we have lost MRL members (at least in part) due to stresses and strains of submitting and arguing about CCS proposals.

As expected, I do not support the proposal.

The only beneficiary is midipoet himself. That is why he should cover his expenses out-of-pocket. Monero community did not get invited, he does not have a speaker slot. Does not make sense to me.

The event is organized by a foundation whose purposes do not benefit the monero community at all.

The prices are not even in local currency. I don't want to imagine how he could exchange donations in xmr for local currency.

This is the consequence of having previously funded projects that should not have been funded, such as MoneroKon 2022 . What will be the next ccs, midipoet surfing in Tarifa?

Outrageous.

This is the consequence of having previously funded projects that should not have been funded, such as MoneroKon 2022

Out of interest, why do you think MoneroKon 2022 should not have been funded?

!276 (comment 14423)

Ah ok - because i am not from/based in Lisbon/Portugal coupled to the fact that there is a totalitarian government in place there.

I support the proposal and agree with midipoet that it can be more impactful to spread our message at other conferences than to preach to the converted. The cost compared to the potential benefit is negligible.

More importantly, this discussion seems to be heavily brigaded by sock puppets. I would encourage the admins to investigate and take necessary measures. If the IP logs aren't conclusive, the similarities in writing style should be enough proof to see what is going on here. This type of behavior erodes the community's confidence in the CCS and can cause great harm long-term.

This isn't the first time the same individual has wreaked havoc in the CCS. He previously altered chat logs to argue against another proposal by the same author and used the same sock puppet accounts to bolster his position.

Unfounded accusations cluttering a CCS proposal comments section. I was working under the assumption we came here to keep the debate on-topic, speak like adults, not run individual campaigns against one another, like those you commonly engage in, or you'd see play out in a kindergarten classroom. Shouldn't you come back when you are 100% certain of such allegations? Else it is nothing but an ill-intended attempt to diffamate, discredit and rule out my opinions; perpetuate a lie. Kindly quit trying to get me cancelled, or more specificially speaking, invalidate my criticisms using an ad-hominem comment.

Since you like stirring the pot more than you like to admit and you accuse me of not only "altering chat logs", but also "wreaking havoc" around here, let me remind you and others who recorded a Clubhouse call to get Diego "rehrar" Salazar let go as Monero Core Team assistant, without asking any of the participants for their consent, posting that on YouTube as "MoneroTV" since seemingly you are such a coward, not only you were part of the call and asking insidious questions — knowing fully well you were recording the audio — to rehrar, you also had the gall to post it in a platform like YouTube using an account different than your personal one, or with a geonic nym, for that matter. Do you forget the reddit threads, the non-stop slandering crusade you pulled off against rehrar on IRC channels last year? Hello, #monero-markets, et. al.? Or will you deny that you are Monero's Outreach producer and the one who made those animated videos available in that MoneroTV channel?

Tell us now, who is the one that likes to wreak havoc in the community? Who partakes in cancelling, reactionary enterprises?

I think you're biting off more than you can chew there. Just like the words you're using. Diffamate is not a word and Diego was not let go because of anything I did -- he was fired because of his own actions. If you have a problem with how Core handled the situation, speak with them.

Also, try to switch up your writing style from time to time because the sock puppetry is beyond obvious. I mean, what's the likelihood that these two proposals, made 3 months apart, would be downvoted by the same exact "individuals"? The same accounts that go around quoting each other and liking each other's comments...

@geonic1 You violated multiple people's consent. A decent person would've given proper heads-up right the second you started recording that Clubhouse call. To this day you have not removed that call from YouTube, you have not apologized for your infringement of others' privacy. You did create quite the ordeal, though. Congratulations.

I did not ask for your advice on how I should type on here, nor are you a stylometrist by trade, last I checked. Rest assured I am not behind any of the accounts you claim are mine. You may nudge the powers that be so they can correlate IP addresses, hire a detective, or talk to a three-lettered agent: looks like that is the only way a few people in this repository will irrevocably be convinced the "suckpuppet" argument is as false as the next thing.

I will not keep feeding you attention, seemingly that is all you ever want. Keep running your slandering campaigns, champion. You tag me when you tighten your grownup man pants and happen to have on-topic arguments relating to this CCS proposal. Until then, I have absolutely nothing to talk to you about.

Dear @geonic1.

Happily, as opposed to the countries where @midipoet organizes its parties paid for by the monero community, you don't need a CoViD-passport to be able to comment on the CCS, and you don't need a monero friends club card. Nor is there a police force paid with money stolen from the users to expel all those who dare to contradict you. All you need is time, a computer and reasoning.

Anyone can realize that we are not sockpuppets, no one could imitate my grammatical errors or my lack of literary style.

The reason we invest our time and talent in commenting is that we still maintain our idealism. We still believe that monero is the most important economic project in the field of cryptocurrencies. And because we believe that if resources are wasted on proposals like this one, which bring no benefit to the community, valuable resources are lost that could be used in proposals that are really worthwhile.

Best regards.

I would have been absolutely in favor of funding this trip if there would have been a speaker slot for Monero.

But without, I am a little skeptical to be honest.

Sending a paid attendee trying to push flyers on people sounds a little bit ... I dont know ...

I would have been absolutely in favor of funding this trip if there would have been a speaker slot for Monero.

We didn't have a speakers slot in 2019.

We held a fringe event, inviting the local cryptocurrency/Monero community at a completely separate venue (about 1.5km away from the OFF venue). The cost was nearly three times this CCS. We gave out flyers, paper wallets, pastries (which cost a small fortune i might add) and some free Monero.

It was only because i networked at the main OFF event on the day prior that we were able to get attendance from representatives from the likes of Trezor, Casa, and the Open Money Initiative.

I have attached the paper wallets that we gave out at the event, the back had seed words WalletPostCards_v3.pdf.

I do not believe the CCS at it stands is anything close to zero-sum.

I don't really see any issues with this CCS relative to precedents, and the ask is reasonable.

mentioned in commit 3e36c6c0

merged

mentioned in merge request !294 (merged)

@luigi1111 would it be possible to get the first milestone (4.25 XMR) paid out to pay for flights and hotel. to the address:

84D3bHWkeAzgtyWWCWMDhGYv6PFCNCo9n4aqyMNoyYfe97GdqFnB2DW6UuWeJz9ihRjHd1mfao1wFAjPMV68eDffUWEr5Mw

thank you.

CCs Report published in Reddit

Exit Strategy Podcast to follow (date still tbc as host is long-form travelling)

As an update to this CCS Work in Progress.

I have travelled to the event, and delivered a report: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/v18o78/ccs_report_midipoet_at_the_oslo_freedom_forum/

I have received one of the two milestone payouts (4.25 XMR of the total of 8.5 XMR).

I had planned to be involved in a podcast, reporting on the event as a follow-up to a podcast I did last year: https://exitstrategypod.libsyn.com/015-robin-renwick-revisiting-bitcoin-human-rights-and-the-oslo-freedom-forum

This will no longer be happening.

I had also planned to distribute flyers at the Oslo event - and this did not happen (mainly as I was advised against it on the original CCS and also privately on IRC).

With this in mind, I propose to refund a portion of the CCS to the General Fund (i.e., refund the initially projected cost of the prep for the podcast and the cost of the initially proposed flyer printing). This is because the originally planned work could not/was not completed. As per the CCS rules, the XMR attributed to this work should get refunded to the GF.

The second payout is supposed to be 4.25 XMR. I propose refunding 2 XMR to the GF, which equates to roughly €300 at current rates (€100 for the printing, and €200 for the four hours prep time for the podcast).

The remaining balance (2.25 XMR) will be paid out to me (to address: 89wrG8….N4eApKHa) @luigi1111

This was discussed at the Community meeting on 24th September 2022.

Midipoet oslo freedom forum ccs proposal.md

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